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Old 11-18-2007, 05:06 AM
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Neofinetia falcata

Okay I promised that I would do a thread on these little wonders with some history and information. So I'm going to give as much info as I humanly can. All of this info is what I gathered from the web, and from where I bought my babies.

Here goes....

Neofinetia falcata or "wind orchid" are actually very easy go grow. These orchids are very hardy and can tolerate extreme temperatures even to as low as the upper 30's.

Light should be at medium levels ranging from 1500-3000 ft. candles, 6"-8" away from fluorescent lights, and 4 feet from high intesity bulbs. The plants can be grown both outdoors or even on a windowsill. East, south or western exposure preferred with filteration.

Humidity should be kept around 40%-60%. Water with clean water if at all possible. Flush the plant regularly if using tap or well water. DO NOT USE SOFTENED WATER !!! Let the plant dry out between waterings. Use plenty of water between active growth which is spring and summer and also while the plant is in flower. Reduce water intake when in dormant period, cooler winter days.

A balanced fertilizer can be used year round preferably urea free. If rain, distilled, or reverse osmosis water is used, add a little tap or well water to supply the needed calcium and magnesium. Fertilize very lightly during the growing season and once a month during the rest period.

Neofinetias bloom usually spring through fall. The inflorescence can have from three to as many as 15 flowers. Most variations are white with a nectary spur, but there are also pink, green, cherry-red, and yellow colored forms, as well as different leaf variations and growth habits. The blooms typically last 1-2 months and are very fragrant both day and night. Fragrance ranges from citrus, floral, tropical, and bubble gum. Yes, BUBBLE GUM !

Repotting is usually done in the spring and early summer round about 2-3 years, containers being clay, plastic, net pots or wood baskets. Mix must be able to drain freely. Ideal medium is spaghnum moss only, or tree fern fiber only, spagh/tree fern mix, open bark mix, or osmunda fiber. Plants can also be mounted on cork, fern plaques, or on wood. If conditions are kept right some growers can even mount on rocks with live moss.


When I purchased my Neos, there was a lot of Japanese terminology that I had to take a crash course in for the meaning and type of orchid I was purchasing. This is the standard that the Japanese use on these orchids. Here is some terminology that will come in handy for those who may want to purchase one later on.


Ran = Orchid

Furan = Wind Orchid

Fukiran = Rich and Noble Orchid


Types of growth:

Bean Leaf= Leaves are thicker and plants have a shorter leaf span.

Contorted Growth= Leaves have a twist or contortion.

Ocean Wave= Leaves will have a slight twist, more so at apices.

Pine Needle Growth=Growths have more leaves and are generally smaller.More leaves per growth.

Princess Leaf= Slightly narrow green leaf.

Samurai Growth=Leaves with a strong, downward curve.

Fukurin Variegation= Marginal variegation, striping may be along the leaf edge, as well as the center of the leaf.

Tiger Striping= Translates as Tiger Uneveness. Markings are bands of color on the leaf. Some are distinct, while others blend.


This is where I even still get confused. Some of these orchids are still called Fu-ran(wind orchid). These are the orchids that are grown in certain parts of the regions of Japan, Korea and China. These orchids love moving air. Go figure. Others are called Fu-kiran. For it was said only the rich and noble owned them. (In history, only the Shogun warriors and Emperor were allowed to possess these.) Now one of my orchids is a type of Fu-ran. The other one is a type of Fu-kiran.

I do know that it is more difficult to ascertain the pink colored Neos due to high demand. In price comparision, yellows were higher. Cost is calculated by growths and type of form. Prices range from $15 to as high as $3000.00, with the average being $30-$75.

You can google more information on Neofinetia falcatas. Here are a couple of sites where I got my information from. There's plenty more on these sites.

This is where I bought my orchids. Very awesome.
New World Orchids

More information on this site and can purchase a book that is strictly all about these plants. (All other books were in Japanese)
THE NEOFINETIA WEB 富貴蘭

Another site that has tidbit information and also sells Neos.
Orchids and Orchid Supplies

I hope that all of this information helps.
Happy growing!
Jenny
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Old 11-18-2007, 05:23 AM
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A very good report I vote for sticky.

The info on winter dormancy has quelled my worries, mine is only a single growth, and has only made one leaf since having it. Hopefully It will kick off in spring!

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Old 11-18-2007, 06:20 AM
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I've bought lots of orchids from New World Orchids and know the guys who run the nusery. As far as I'm concerned, they're the US experts in Neos.
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Old 11-18-2007, 06:48 AM
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That is a very comprehensive info on Neofinetia, especially for a serious lover of Neofinetias.

Thank you, articuno75.

I lost my only one this past summer. What attracted me to it was the uniqueness of its mount. I just wanted to try it. I have not seen any recently. But I am waiting for late winter when we will have a few orchid shows.

I hope I will be able to get a few of them.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:31 AM
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I do know this. When I looked everyhere, and I mean EVERY WHERE, There were only two vendors/sites that I could find for the United States that You could buy them. That's the sites mentioned above. I'm sure there are more, but probably not having the variety that these two do.

Pikevi, isn't it fascinating on how it's done? So easy too. You can see the technique and how it's done on New World Orchids

Kmarch: I would definitely consider them the experts here in the U.S. I got to talk to one of them for quite a while over the phone. Very fascinating. He goes to Japan personally 2-3 times a year for orders on Neos ! Even though he also has them growing in GH. How awesome is that?
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Old 11-18-2007, 10:20 PM
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Very nice. This is good information for anyone interested in Neofinetia. You did a really great job on this!
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Old 11-18-2007, 10:46 PM
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articuno75,

I agree that New World Orchids has the most Neo. variety. I've ordered from them before.

To add, orchidweb.com has a good variety of Neos, but not as many as NWO.

By the way, I have the Benisuzume (bubble gum fragrance) and can hardly wait when it blooms!
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleneg View Post
articuno75,

I agree that New World Orchids has the most Neo. variety. I've ordered from them before.

To add, orchidweb.com has a good variety of Neos, but not as many as NWO.

By the way, I have the Benisuzume (bubble gum fragrance) and can hardly wait when it blooms!

OOooo. You have to let me know if it really does. You gotta post the pics too! This one is also on my next to get list.
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleneg View Post
To add, orchidweb.com has a good variety of Neos, but not as many as NWO.
I'm pretty sure that Orchids Ltd get their Neos through Glen at New World Orchids.
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:15 AM
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If you bounce back and forth between the sites you can price compare. NWO has the most. Also another tidbit of information that I forgot to mention. Some of the Neos types have morphing capabilities. how cool is that?
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:58 AM
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That's interesting. When I received my orders from from Orchids Ltd. and from NWO, I noticed they look very similar (i.e. same furan pots). The only difference is the name tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarch View Post
I'm pretty sure that Orchids Ltd get their Neos through Glen at New World Orchids.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by articuno75 View Post
Some of the Neos types have morphing capabilities.
What do you mean by morphing capabilities?
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:06 AM
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By what I've read, and what Glen said, some of the variations have morphing capabilities. They can actually change into the other types of growths or variations. Example. The Neo 'Gekkeikan' can under the right conditions, morph into the 'Tenkei' variety.

The 'Gekkeikan' has a stripping pattern on the leaves that's both yellow and green, kinda reminds me of almost like a spider plant. The 'Tenkei' has this same pattern, but a little more different and more striking.

Not Neos will do this. And not all Neos will morph. This is what got me fascinated about this species in general. I've been trying to find out what varieties have this ability, but I guess I'm just going to have to email Dr. Lehr and ask. (There's not a whole lot of info out there, and what there is, it's in Japanese!) This is why I bought a "Gekki" so I could watch it grow and see for myself if it were to ever change.
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:19 PM
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That is a very interesting phenomenon. I wonder if the term 'morphs' has been used a bit loosely here. Would the 'transformation' go back and forth?
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Old 11-20-2007, 12:47 AM
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By what Dr. Glenn Lehr told me was that if it were to morph, it does for the better. It sounded like once it changes, it's permanent. They never go back. I've looked, and am still looking for info on this phenomena, cause it doesn't happen all the time.
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Old 11-20-2007, 07:25 AM
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I am trying to get more info on that too.

Thank you.
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Old 11-20-2007, 05:28 PM
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I had originally avoided Neofinetia because I am not too thrilled with white flowers. I saw a pine needle type at Cal Orchids and fell in love with the plant itself. So, first Neofinetia. Then while at Cal Orchids on another occasion, they must have had a good price on a near mature seedling of 'Casper' X 'The Bride'. Sure sounded like another white Neo to me, but I bought it anyways. The first one must have been growing on me. THEN, while at the Santa Barbara Orchid Estates recently, they had another bunch of Neos on their $7.50 specials, and I must be a sucker for a bargain, because I picked up another one there. So, here I am beating my head against a stone wall asking myself why in the world did I want another white orchid!!!! So, the first to bloom was #2, the 'Casper' X 'The Bride', and guess what? It was pink! What a delight! Where in the world the pink genes came from, I have no idea. It certainly doesn't sound like either of the parents was pink, that's for sure. So here it is. Maybe not deeply pink, but definitely not pure white.

Neofinetia falcata #2 IMG10330 photo - Admiral Schnitz photos at pbase.com
Neofinetia falcata #2 IMG10328 photo - Admiral Schnitz photos at pbase.com

Needless to say I am one happy camper.
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:06 PM
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At what stage in maturity do they grow new growths? I have one that has a single growth, looks like a vanda, but many i see pics of have several from the same point.
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Old 11-20-2007, 06:48 PM
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Cynthia,

That's pretty.

I, too, am not much into white or yellow blooms. But when I was browsing orchidweb.com and NWO, I ended up buyin a yellow, two pinks, and a white (for the fragrance ). I can hardly wait for all of them to bloom, especially the bubble gum fragrant one.

Thanks for sharing your Neo pic.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:25 PM
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I feel sorry for 'white' flowers.

I think white flowers look great on plants with dark green leaves. I do have a few jasminums and a gardenia. But I have to admit I like their fragrance more than the colour
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Old 11-20-2007, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom499 View Post
At what stage in maturity do they grow new growths? I have one that has a single growth, looks like a vanda, but many i see pics of have several from the same point.
Flowers are produced at the base of the third leaf down from the top. If no inflorescence emerges, then there's a chance that a new growth will emerge instead.

I got this from a copy of the AOS bulletin, written by Kichigoro Suzuki. I could type this whole report here, but I don't know if I can.

Tom: Some will make growths easily, while others can take 10-15 years.
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Old 12-22-2007, 08:01 PM
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N. falcata

Hello, my first post. This Neofenetia falcata is my first orchid bought from Hauserman's in '95. Twenty five flowers this year!! Cheers
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Old 12-22-2007, 08:12 PM
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welcome ackgreen
I am glad that you have decided to join in with posting
Congrats with the flowering looks very nice thanks for sharing with us
good growing
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Old 12-22-2007, 08:15 PM
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Hi Ackgreen and welcome to the forum!!! I love the Neo!!! (Drooling) I have two of them myself. Aren't they awesome?! Congrats on the blooms. Do you have other orchids besides this beauty? If so, we love to see them! Also if you adjust your profile so that it shows your location in the upper right corner so that everyone knows where you're from it would be great.

Thanks for sharing and nice to meet you and your Neo!
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Old 12-22-2007, 08:22 PM
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Welcome to the forum ,ackgreen.

The flowers look great. Too many flowers in that small plant!
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Old 12-22-2007, 08:41 PM
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Beautiful! I just got my first 2 Neo's recently(one as a replacement, but I managed to save the other!). I can't wait for them to look like that!
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Old 12-22-2007, 09:14 PM
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Hi and welcome to the forum Ackgreen. Very lovely Neo. Be sure and share with us your
other orchids.
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Old 12-25-2007, 11:10 AM
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Happy Christmas all and thank you for the welcome. This a wonderful forum.
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Old 12-25-2007, 12:59 PM
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Old 12-25-2007, 02:34 PM
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I've been searching around and haven't found an answer to how root bound these like to be kept. Does anyone have any idea?
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Old 12-25-2007, 03:07 PM
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Zero742,
Here is a link of 2 different potting methods for N. falcata.

Neofinetia potting
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Old 12-26-2007, 11:10 PM
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I purchased a Neo that was in a basket with coconut coir, the seller was really into coir as a medium... maybe a little too much so. Is anyone growing Neos in other medium besides sphag? ackgreen, your Neo looks very happy in it's basket, what medium are you using?
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:58 AM
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I have several Neos growing in coconut fibre in clay pots. They are doing well, but need to be watered every 1-2 days. Since I've never had good luck with sphag. this loose medium works fine for me.
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Old 12-28-2007, 06:18 PM
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I recently had a chance to purchase one of these. it was a "ocean wave". I thought it was pretty expensive... have yall found these to be pricey or was it just over priced? Is there a reason they tend to be more expensive?

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Old 12-31-2007, 09:17 AM
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Neo medium

Quote:
Originally Posted by MSPProductions View Post
I purchased a Neo that was in a basket with coconut coir, the seller was really into coir as a medium... maybe a little too much so. Is anyone growing Neos in other medium besides sphag? ackgreen, your Neo looks very happy in it's basket, what medium are you using?
Hello MSPProductions, I started out with small to medium bark in the basket, which itself is made from mahogany scraps, but over time it has all been "stolen" by chickadees (I hang it from the branch of a pine tree overhanging my second floor deck from April to the first hard frost). Who knows what chickadees want with bark chips but now the "medium" in the basket consists of a very few chips of bark in the bottom, pine needles, and bird droppings of various species. I have only "repotted" once in order to give a friend a division.
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellina9 View Post
I recently had a chance to purchase one of these. it was a "ocean wave". I thought it was pretty expensive... have yall found these to be pricey or was it just over priced? Is there a reason they tend to be more expensive?
The reason the "price" is a little high is because of two factors. One there are only a handful (namely two) here in the U.S. that have a major variety of the species Neofinetia falcata that we know of who are vendors. Two, these vendors either personally raise or specifically go to Japan to buy these orchids for sale. Hence supply and demand. Also the price of the orchid that you bought whichever Neo that it is, also depends on how many growths that the orchid has. Uncommon Neo with more growths = higher price.
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Old 12-31-2007, 09:55 PM
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Oooo just to let everyone know, I was just at eBay and there are a BUNCH of NEOS for auction. All are from Michigan!!! Bids are starting CHEAP!!!
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:53 PM
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At least you guys manage to get your Neos. I went to a nursery nearby my place, this is what the owner told me.

“He had 03 samurai orchids. 01 customer came to him to purchase them. Due to reasons known to him alone, the owner refused to sell them. Few days later, 02 of his Neos went missing. He suspected that customer may have stolen them because he had not shown them to anybody except him.”

Now dear me. When I approach the owner to sell to me, he stubbornly said “No, No, No”.

Sigh. Where can I get one?????
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:23 PM
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How does one steal a plant, let alone two from a store? Where can one hide it? Could it be a tall tale concocted by the shop owner since he does not want to sell them? May be they are kept hidden in his private collection.

I would not have believed that there are orchid thieves if it were not for the experience of kmarch.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:36 PM
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What happened to kmarch? Sorry for the ignorance and memory lapse.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:41 PM
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I had a favorite complex Paph stolen off of a Show and Tell table at an orchid society 15+ years ago. I just bought 3 seedlings of a cross of Winston Churchill and a Paph, different clone, that was one of the parents of my favorite and now long gone complex Paph. Hoping for something similar.
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Old 01-01-2008, 09:43 PM
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I think he is in the USA ( Deltroit ), I believe, not far from here. I hope his body still remembers the -10F temperatures
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:13 PM
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The owner of the nursery was kind enough to give me a grand tour of his nursery including his private collection & the Neos were part of his private collection. He has lots of species especially from the Asia region be it from Philippine, China, Japan, etc.

He will not sell me any orchids that have not bloom & his price I found was the cheapest among the other nurseries that I had been to. Like I said in the other post Pikevi, $9 for 01 ‘Bird of Paradise’ (this is not an orchid plant) compared to $45+++ at the other nurseries & at Toronto, you mentioned $70. $9 for 01 Phal, $2 for 01 Vanda Miss Joachim etc... I do not know if I can find anywhere cheaper than this.

I tend to believe this old nursery owner but then again who knows. But whatever it is, to those thieves including Cynthia stealer – “HELL TO THEM”.

BTW like what Articuno75 said, when or where did Kmarch come into the picture.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:36 PM
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Oh.... sorry.

I were not clear enough. Kmarch (or is it Anton?.. I may be getting senile) had a few of his orchids stolen a few months ago. I think it was during the night.

I apologise if I am referring to the wrong person

rmt135: I was joking about the owner of the store . I did NOT mean that he is a liar.

I will have a hard time parting with some orchids I have. I may inadvertently kill them but would not give them away.. quite a nasty character , aren't I
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:16 PM
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If anyone is intersted there are some on ebay now with a buy it now of 20.00. I just bought one.
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Old 01-19-2008, 02:35 PM
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Mines been sitting around in good light with warmth, cooler nights, good watering hasn't done a thing!
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:26 PM
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they need to dry a little between watering in winter till they start new growth. how long have you had it
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:32 PM
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Beginning of September. Its in bark plain bark in a smallish pot. I may repot it into something shallower, possibly see if i can get some good moss and do the traditional style look.
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Old 01-19-2008, 07:32 PM
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pikevi, articuno,

Yes I did have about 10 orchids stolen a couple of months ago. They disappeared from our patio during the night. To clarify, I currently live in Australia (which is where I lost the orchids) but originally I was form south-east Michigan. And yes, my body is still used to the cold. In fact I visited my sister in Michigan for Christmas and I got to shovel snow! It was fun. One night we got about 8 inches and I shoveled the next morning. I know, I know, it's rather perverse of me to have enjoyed shoveling snow, but I never much minded doing it anyway so....I have no explanations or excuses to offer.
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Old 01-19-2008, 10:21 PM
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I recently potted my two Neos into S/H. Both had active growths but were moving very slow. Since putting them in S/H I have already noticed a difference in the main growth on each.

I was having trouble keeping them moist enough in the traditional spag. method due to the very dry air of the desert. Even though it is winter, my orchids probably still think it is end of summer to the beginning of winter since it is still 65F during the day.


Jay
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:28 PM
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jay,

I have a Neostylis in s/h for a little over a month. It's doing fine. So I plan on transferring the rest of my Neo. falcatas (yes, I have several different types )

However, one has such a long aerial root. I'm afraid to repot in an s/h pot. Any suggestions?
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Old 01-20-2008, 12:38 AM
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Arleneg,

I have not had to work with a long aerial root yet when transplanting to S/H. I have heard of people soaking the whole root system in warm water to "soften" the roots so that they can reposition them into a pot, but that was on a Phal not a Neo.

Sorry I am not too sure on that one.


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Old 01-20-2008, 02:45 AM
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You can gently coerce the root to get it into the pot. If the root breaks that is fine, don't panic and don't cut it off. Believe it or not it will still live and be alive. (Not unless you go totally brutal and completely tear it off) Just pot it. Only remove what looks black and apparently dead. Otherwise, get a bigger pot
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:02 AM
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If you are going to pot it up in S/H be careful not to get a pot that is too deep. You really need to pick a pot that will have the bottom of the roots about an inch above the drainage holes. If it is too much farther up then the medium (LECA) will be too dry around the roots and will not work effectively.

So if you got to a bigger pot, go wider not taller.

Jay
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Hi, This post is very informative, however ther are some queries to ask about some specific topic. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Thanks,
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:38 AM
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Just post your questions here and we'll see what we can do.
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:50 AM
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hi hataish
welcome to the forum
we are an orchid forum for specific information.
it would also be helpful to us if you can update your Profile with your Location so we understand your growing conditions as we have members from all over the world with different growing conditions also that will help us with giving you advice.
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:43 AM
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Excellent job Jenny! And here I thought there was only one type of Neofinetia falcata. DOH!
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:08 AM
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Oh no! I'm going for a green one next....Maybe yellow.....Maybe the bubble gum scented one... I CAN'T MAKE UP MY MIND!!!
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:11 AM
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I really want to add the 'Yellow Wind Orchid' version to my collection. I just love these little guys! Of course, I want to make sure that they'll (Neo and Asco) bloom for me before I get carried away. GASP - did I just say that!?!
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:28 AM
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If you can, try to get one in spike. That way you know for sure. The Neofinetia Ogonmaru is very nice with large flowers.
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:07 AM
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Yep - I like that one. Also really like the Toyozakura and Momo Hime. I know what I'm asking for for my birthday!
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:37 AM
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LOL!!! Like my kids and Pokemon, I want them all!
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:42 AM
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OK, I am definitely pumped up now....no thanks to all you enablers and I definitely want one of these now. The Mini-Mark will have to wait and since I already have 24 Phals and no Neo's and since I just spent close to $20K on dental, I'll have to settle for only 1...for now.

I went on to New World and their prices are outrageous, at least for my budget. Anybody know where I can find a nice Neo for about $20-$25? I've got the credit card warmed up....
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:51 AM
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I just found a great selection at Cal Orchids ranging from $20-$50, lot's of colors. I'm stoked.

....this forum is dangerous
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:04 PM
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Oak Hill of course... (and the Mini Mark is there too, LOL !!!)
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Old 02-08-2008, 07:31 PM
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<-----wipe that smile off your face Jenny. Between you, Vivienne and everyone else, I have no chance of saving a pittance. It feels contagious. Jim from Cal Orchids is sending me Darwinara Charm ‘Blue Pacific’ and Darwinara Charm 'Pink Star'. I've been wanting one for so long, that I bought 2...for now
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:14 PM
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Smile New to the forum!

Hi,
I found your forum as I was looking up information on another orchid. Last year around this time I inherited about 300 orchids. Its a long story, but I built a greenhouse and am learning everyday about care and culture. I have been on the AOS website, but yours looks like to be so much more fun and informative. I know I will learn allot! So I was just reading about the Neofinetia Falcata and I looked in my notebook ( wrote down all the orchids that were identified by tags) as it sounded familiar. I have 2, they are smaller, but they soon wil get a whole new lease on life as I know now how to pot and care for them. I really have been having such a blast with these orchids and when they start to spike and bloom it is truly amazing. I am hooked!
I live in Central California, love to garden and love plants. I look forward to reading more in the future.
Nancy
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:18 PM
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Welcome new Nancy! I'm surer there are several (ok many) folks here who would drool (we do a lot of that) over 300 orchids!!! This forum is simply put... the best. Very friendly and informative folks. And we LOVE pictures.
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:19 PM
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Sandra - I was checking out those Darwinara at Cal Orchids. Let me know how they are when they arrive! Are they bigger than Neos??
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Old 02-08-2008, 08:23 PM
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Sandra~ You know we can't help it. That 'Blue Pacific' is gorgeous. Is going in my wish list.

NancyH~ So glad that you found us. Nice to meet you and welcome. We have an Intro thread for newbies, and if you introduce yourself there you can meet a bunch of us and tell us about some of those 300 some odd babies that you came into. I'm envious already
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:47 PM
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Newbie Thread

HI,
Could not find this thread on the forum. Where is it? I will gladly post asap.
Nancy
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Old 02-08-2008, 10:07 PM
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It's under Introductions in the main area of the forum.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:49 PM
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Thumbs up I LOVE neos!

I bought one a few years ago and its still alive through all my growing system changes, I was experimenting with hydroponics for a while before deciding to use coconut chips and hand/water, whats funny is I was actually using MORE water with the hydroponics then with this system.

BTW, I love the spell checker,

Sam

P.S. this is the neo I have, I had no idea there were so many variants, I want to get the "red emperor" and the benisuzume.
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Old 03-12-2008, 04:04 PM
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Absolutey gorgeous! Have you always grown S/H? Reason I ask is because my Neos are in Spagh now and I'm thinking about putting them into S/H with Hydroton along with my Paph Ho Chi Minh. These would be the only ones that would be in S/H and I've never done it before.
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