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Old 06-19-2008, 09:29 PM
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Question Laelia kleberi

Last month, I bought a small compot of Laelia kleberis. I have, yet, to find the care for these seedlings. Currently, they're in sphag moss. A small one succumbed to rot. Does anyone have any advice on how to care for these seedlings? I'd hate to lose them.

The largest seedling is about 3"; smallest is about 1" tall. Can anyone tell me when I can transfer these to regular potting mix?

Also, can anyone confirm that L. kleberi is a rupiculous Laelia? I think it is, but am not sure.
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:36 PM
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Sorry Arlene. You know I have no advice since I don't know much yet. Someone else will help you out soon.

My Angraecum magdelane seedling compot is doing OK but not growing much. I mounted several onto cork just to see if it likes to dry out more. The rest I left in the original compot pot which was a mix or cork, perlite, and rocks. So far so good.

You have any pics. of your little ones?
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Old 06-19-2008, 11:42 PM
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I tend to leave seedlings in a moist medium until they're mature enough. Since info on and plant pics of the kleberi is scarce, I'm not sure what the care would be for the seedlings. I know how to care for a mature one though. At this time, I'm hesitant to repot the largest seedling since I have no idea what the mature size is.

Sorry, no pics of L. kleberi...yet.
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Old 06-20-2008, 05:58 AM
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Arlene, I can find no such plant (or synonym) on OrchidWiz, in Withner's, The Cattleyas and Their Relatives, Vol II, The Laelias, or on the World Monocot Checklist.

I have no clue what you have there. I tried some other genera just searching for the species name without success also.
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Old 06-20-2008, 07:07 AM
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Synonym: Hoffmannseggella kleberi - F.E. Miranda in Orchids74(6): 458 [Jun 2005]

Also saw references to it as 'Sophronitis kleberi'

According to Miranda, it is rupicolous.
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Old 06-20-2008, 11:41 AM
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I have one from Floralia. I am assuming it is a rupiculous Laelia and am growing it that way. Every thing I get from Floralia is bare root and root challenged, coming from Brazil and not freshly unpotted. But I have this listed as near mature , which is my code for successfully rooted mature plant from Floralia. Will go out to the GH later today and look at the size.
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Old 06-20-2008, 12:04 PM
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Im lost now, whats rupiculous mean?
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Old 06-20-2008, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exasperatus2002 View Post
Im lost now, whats rupiculous mean?
It means rock growing. Those that grow in and around rocks
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Old 06-20-2008, 01:24 PM
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Well, it's interesting. It is kleberi as Orchidementia said, not kleberis as was posted originally. The Hoffmannseggella part is straightforward. At one point there was an abortive attempt to split the Brazilian Laelias with the rupicolous ones becoming Hoffmannseggella. It never took hold and they all stayed Laelia until this year when they all became Sophronitis. If all goes according to the current plan they will soon become Cattleya.

The interesting part is that the name kleberi appears to never have been officially accepted. Again, Orchidementia is right in that it was described by Miranda, but I can find no verification that it was properly described in Latin (or that other necessary steps were taken) as required for recognition (I don't have the Orchids magazine in question). There is some hint that it might be the same plant as Sophronitis (Laelia) bradei. They look similar and come from the same area south of Diamantina in the state of Minas Gerais, Brazil. At any rate, this species appears to be officially nonexistent because it fails to appear on the KEW World Monocot Checklist (as kleberi) The problem with the geographical connection to bradei is that a lot of rupicolous Laelias come from that same area so geo association really doesn't clarify much.

In answer to the original question, this is definitely a rupicolous Laelia regardless of it's real name assuming it is the plant that Miranda described. As to what to call it...don't know. Apparently if it isn't bradei, then it's officially in limbo. It seems to me that kleberi is nothing more than a horticultural name at this point. I'd be interested in what others think.

Last edited by JLu; 06-20-2008 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 06-20-2008, 06:36 PM
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Here's an article by Miranda that specifically mentions kleberi as a bradei:

Untitled Document

I believe Kew has it listed as a sophrontis, but I could not find a primary source for that.
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Old 06-21-2008, 05:32 AM
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Couple of points, Orchidementia. I guess I wasn't clear enough in my previous post.

The Brazilian Laelias are now all Sophronitis (since early 2008). No question about that. They are no longer Laelia and referring to them as Laelia is incorrect. (I know Jerry D doesn't like that, but it is what it is. I'm just the messenger.) Later this year (according to plan) they will all become Cattleya.

As to the bradei issue.....The Miranda article you posted is a good one that explains in more detail than I the failure of the splitters to establish the genus Hoffmannseggella. However, I think Miranda confused you with his sub-generic divisions of rupicolous Sophronitis (Laelia). He created a sub-genus called bradei into which he placed bradei and kleberi along with a few others. My point is much different.....there appears to be a reputable feeling that the species bradei and the species kleberi are one and the same taxon. That apparently is why the name kleberi is not currently accepted as a taxon at all.

So to make my conclusion again....kleberi appears to be bradei, not just a close relative.I'm not trying to be a taxonomist here. I'm just trying to interpret their action in not recognizing kleberi as a valid taxon. One thing is certain...at this instant there is no recognized plant known as Sophronitis (Laelia) kleberi except in the horticultural trade. It's certainly valid to question my conjecture as to why that is true. I'm just guessing at the reason.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:04 AM
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According to the Kew checklist, there is no species currently recognized by the name Hoff., Laelia, or Soph. kleberi.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:42 AM
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Thanks for the verification, Kevin. It certainly helps to have someone double check these lists and facts.
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:00 AM
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Now that that's all been discussed, did anyone find anything relevant to original query? I was trying to find something specific to the culture of the plant under discussion, but could only find generic notes on Brazilian sophronitis culture. I did find one image that give an idea of its blooming size (from LAELIOPHILES: Écologie et culture des Laelias rupicoles LAELIOPHILES: Écologie et culture des Laelias rupicoles)
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Old 06-21-2008, 02:08 PM
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Well, discussing all that was an effort to determine what the freaking plant is. Since we still do not know, it's difficult to give any reliable advice.

If you wish to assume that it is a rupicolous Sophronitis (Laelia), the care of those is pretty common to all of them. See link:

How to Grow Rupicolous Laelias
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:02 PM
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Wow. Thanks for all that educational stuff. I'll check out bradei.

JLu -- I've already found that culture for rupiculous Laelias. My question was how to care for the seedlings and if I should keep them in sphag moss a while longer or repot into a rocky medium.

Cynthia -- What's the size of your mature kleberi?
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Old 06-22-2008, 07:37 AM
JLu JLu is offline
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Don't know, Arlene. Since they perpetuate their species on rock, I assume that would be a clue. Since they grow in semi arid conditions, I assume that's a clue. If so, keeping them too wet might cause a problem. I have never raised any rupicolous Laelia seedlings so I do not know.
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Old 06-22-2008, 03:17 PM
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Well, there aren't a lot of pots full of sphagnum on the rocky slopes of Minas Gerias.... in general, they will want to dry by nightfall. Maybe not bone dry, as they are seedlings, and we tend to grow plants with a mind to keeping them all alive, as oppsed to weeding out the weak... However, if they are staying moist for more than two days, I would consider a new medium, or clay pots....

-Cj
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arleneg View Post
I tend to leave seedlings in a moist medium until they're mature enough.
Arleneg, can you elaborate on this? How do you define "mature enough"? I have some seedlings and have been wondering when they will be "mature enough" to pot up into a regular orchid media. Thanks for any ideas.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:08 AM
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OK, the tallest growth on my kleberi is about 6 inches, and it is the oldest growth on the plant. I see no signs of blooming on this growth or any of the others, so it may not represent the mature size. However, since the largest growth is the oldest, ~5 to 6 years old, and I am not sure how substantial the stem of a flower spike would be, the growth may have bloomed and the evidence is just not all that clear.

I am growing all of my rupiculous Laelias (don't bother asking me to change the name I use, I won't until the whole matter is sorted out to a really acceptable level) in my peat and perlite mix in very small CLAY pots. Plastic didn't work with these guys, and they are looking a lot better in clay. They dry out in about 3 days. I have 25 different species of rupiculous Laelias now, as I keep asking Floralia for any on my don't have list each time I order for pick up at a show, and he comes up with a few more each time.

I am sure the earlier use of the word 'kleberis' was correct as it was meant to be the plural of kleberi, as the discussion was of a compot.
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Old 06-23-2008, 04:51 AM
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Cynthia, can you post some pictures of the plant you have that's labled "kleberi"? Since there's no such plant as Laelia kleberi, my curiosity is getting the best of me. I'd like to see if we could figure out what these laelias are.
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Old 06-23-2008, 05:16 AM
JLu JLu is offline
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Cynthia, I don't recall asking anyone, ever, to change the name of a plant. In this case I couldn't because I have no idea what the name should be. Don't blame me for the results of taxonomists. I'm just the messenger.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:47 PM
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Greenhouse gal -- It depends on what type of orchid seedlings you have. I have Catt. seedlings. They should be close to blooming/maturity when the pseudobulbs are more evident and close to mature size (that is, if you know what that is).

Cynthia -- Thanks for measuring. I think, I can safely repot the biggest seedling (3") from the compot to its own pot and potting medium. Now I wonder if granite or marble chips will be good for them. Or should I get some lava rocks (to mix with hydroton)?

In regard to the name, I'll keep referring to it as Laelia kleberi until otherwise.
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