Need help with possibly IDing a NoId

[Orchidementia]

I think I found the grower's page, who as it listed as a "Shive Island 'Everglades.'" I found two references as to what should go before "Shive Island" - one source says Crawshayara Shive Island 'Everglades;' another says Miltonia (the site's in Dutch; it also refers to Miltoniopsis, but not sure in regard to this plant). Both show a photo that's almost a duplicate of what's happily blooming in my living room. Experts - any opinions?

This is the NoId question:

[articuno75]

It does look similiar. Here is a pic from the Everglades Orchids website of the Craw Shive Island 'Everglades'. It was AM/AOS awarded. Are the tips of your flowers a kind of green color too?

[Orchidementia]

Originally Posted by articuno75

It does look similiar. Here is a pic from the Everglades Orchids website of the Craw Shive Island 'Everglades'. It was AM/AOS awarded. Are the tips of your flowers a kind of green color too?

Yup. Thank you - I believe my one of my NoIDs now has a name!

(I think my NoID Nobile Den is a Spring Dream 'Kumiko' - finding the grower's page helped!)

[kmarch]

Orchidementia, I don't mean to rain on your noid-naming parade and I do think there's a good possibility that the Crawshayara is probably correct, but IDing noid hybrids from web photos is really a very tenuous and unreliable practice for a few reasons:

1) A photo captures one flower from one plant on one flowering and doesn't express the entire range of posibilities for that flower. For example, check out the three different appearances of the hybrid Phal Princess Kaiulani in this recent thread., the 7 different colour variations of this one cross, or look at the how different the flowers on one of my plants came out from one year to the next: Orchids du Jour.

In short one cross or even one plant can exhibit a great deal of variation.

2) Many hybrids look similar. For example there are literally hundreds of white hybrid Phals, probably almost as many pink or candy striped.

So as you can see, with plants of the same cross looking different and with different cross all looking the same, it becomes impossible to ID a tagless plant, and doing so from a single photo, or any photo(s), is unreliable at best.

Noids are noids. They still flower and are pretty and rewarding to grow and flower, but it's better ato leave them be noids than to have wrong tags in the post. If an orchid is a noid at least we're sure it is what it is.

[Orchidementia]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Orchidementia, I don't mean to rain on your noid-naming parade and I do think there's a good possibility that the Crawshayara is probably correct, but IDing noid hybrids from web photos is really a very tenuous and unreliable practice

I understand that, and I've read enough posts here to know better than to ever call a NoID something else on this forum.

The point of me trying to figure out what some of my NoIDs might be - like the one that might possibly be a Craw. Shive Island 'Everglades' - is to figure out how to keep it alive, not post pictures of it under false flags here. A little learning is a dangerous thing, and I've probably learned just enough to lethal, so I've stopped assuming that if it looks like an Oncidium Alliance, it needs to be treated like one, and started looking it up. I started with the grower's page of one of the suppliers of where I buy my orchids, figuring that would be a safe bet for IDing for culture purposes.

All that said and understood, your tenuous agreeing to my possible IDing has made my day

[jerrymeola]

I have to disagree somewhat with kmarch on this one.

If you know the actual grower than an ID from HIS photos is usually accurate.

Most growers, myself included, do not put a name tag in every pot when they are small. Usually they are labeled when sold. We can ID the plants from the flowers because we do not grow 10 plants that look alike. There is no commercial reason. So when I see the flower I know what I planted and have a positive ID.

If you are sure the plant came from Everglades Orchids then the ID is correct. He certainly would not grow a lookalike when the original was an awarded plant.

In a discouraging aside, the tags in way too many orchids are mis-IDed. Employees drop plants, tags get knocked out and replaced (sometime the plant next to the one that lost the tag) lots of problems happen. I have received clearly mislabeled plants from a good grower and when I sent the photo he quickly corrected the name.

[Orchidementia]

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

I have to disagree somewhat with kmarch on this one.

If you know the actual grower than an ID from HIS photos is usually accurate.

I thought that might be the case, but what do I know? I'm just trying to keep it alive!

The grower is not Everglades, but a local orchid grower; it seems I've bought one of everything they raise.

[JLu]

Jerry said:

"Most growers, myself included, do not put a name tag in every pot when they are small. Usually they are labeled when sold. We can ID the plants from the flowers because we do not grow 10 plants that look alike."

Therein lies my greatest disagreement with orchid growers. Too many of them do exactly what Jerry admitted to. The fact is that plants are poorly traced through the transfer of evidence chain and nobody can have faith in the resulting identification. If the police did that no criminal would ever be convicted. We, the buyers, deserve far more.

On the subject of identification from pictures, it's impossible. Not only do people make and distribute pictures that are not close to representative of the subject, but the viewer is entirely dependent on the proper calibration of his own monitor. It's amazing how many people just assume that what they see on their monitor is representative of what the sender offered. The proper colors on video monitors are entirely dependent on proper calibration that will not happen unless the owner takes proactive action to assure it.

[Orchidementia]

Originally Posted by JLu

The proper colors on video monitors are entirely dependent on proper calibration that will not happen unless the owner takes proactive action to assure it.

Sweetie, you just made my day.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

If you know the actual grower than an ID from HIS photos is usually accurate.

Perhaps one photo would do it if one is dealing with a clone, but with seed-grown offspring of a complex hybrid, one plant, and therefore one picture, can't possibly accurately represent the entire range of possibilities in a reliable way. I probably should have qualified my comments, indicating I was talking about seed-raised hybrids, not clones. There have been a couple of instances here on the forum where clones have been identified with what i think is a pretty good degree of certainty.

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

Most growers, myself included, do not put a name tag in every pot when they are small. Usually they are labeled when sold.

I've never known a grower to do this. I've seen lots of nurseries where there was one tag in a whole compot, but every nursery I have visited gives every plant its own tag when individually potted up.

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

We can ID the plants from the flowers because we do not grow 10 plants that look alike. There is no commercial reason. So when I see the flower I know what I planted and have a positive ID.

I wasn't meaning to imply that you don't know your own plants Jerry, no doubt you do. That's really a very different issue form the one I was addressing which was someone sitting at home with an noid, browsing the internet and upon finding a picture of something that looks like their orchid, thinking they have made a reliable ID.

To add to something JLu said, not only does the expression of colour in a picture of an orchid depend on proper calibration of a monitor, it is also influenced byt the ambient light in the room where the photo was originally taken, the camera used, and the ambient light in the room of the person viweing th epicture on their computer. That's a lot of different factors that can skew the colour of an image one is viewing.

[Orchidementia]

Originally Posted by kmarch

That's really a very different issue form the one I was addressing which was someone sitting at home with an noid, browsing the internet and upon finding a picture of something that looks like their orchid, thinking they have made a reliable ID.

Not to belabor the point, but the site on which I found the picture was the site of the grower, not some random picture. Sure, I have a fast internet connection and my time is my own, but holy smokes, who's got the time to go through eighty zillion fracking pictures hoping to find one that looks like a plant I have?

Originally Posted by kmarch

That's a lot of different factors that can skew the colour of an image one is viewing.

Indeed. Color management is fairly complex. There's a number of good basic tutorials available, if anyone needs them.

[jay]

Name or no name, it is a beautiful flower that can be enjoyed either way.