Is this rotten?

[Steve B]

Does this look like crown rot? I have had this noid for over 6 months and it has not produced any new leaves. I started to suspect something was wrong, so I took this pic this morning to get some expert opinion.

Thanks,
Steve

[tom499]

I'm afraid it doesnt look good. Any kind of blackness is usually a bad sign.

I would flood it with some kind of antifungal agent and let it sit. Hopefully you'll get a keikei

I've treated phals with crown rot and had them hanging round for ages, waiting for a spike.

[sandra]

oooh Steve, my condolences. The crown looks bad here. You just probably will get a spike out of this though. How long has it been this way?

I hope Mike sees this post. He's Mr. Phal and will know more.

[mayres]

Sandra is correct. Doesn't look good. Do you remember getting water in the crown from either watering or misting - especially later in the day or even earlier if the daytime temps stayed damp and cool? Also as Sandra noted, you will most likely eventually get a flower spike - it can come from the usual places near the base of the plant or as I have noted on one of my plants - right through the center. If you are not a very patient person it is time to think about a replacement. If you are curious and VERY patient - look forward to a period of 2-3 years until you have a viable replacement plant develop from this one.

[Steve B]

Well,

It's hard to say. I want to believe that it was this way when I got it. I have always suspected something was wrong with this guy. The crown just always looked different from my other phals. But on the other hand I can't say that it wasn't me. I have left my orchids out in rain showers from time to time. Guess it doesn't much matter at this point. The other bummer is that I cut the last spike off way too early (hindsight) because the leaves were looking limp. Had I left that spike it might have produced a keikei by now.

I have the patience, but my real estate is limited so I might try a different room with this guy and make space for a new orchid. Maybe i'll try the bathroom with the skylight.

Any sugestestions on what type of antifungal agent I should treat the crown with? Hydrogen peroxide?

Thanks,
Steve

[articuno75]

I use Bayer Advance 3 in 1 for the nitty gritty stuff. You can try it since it's systemic.

[Tobi]

Steve,
You can use hydrogen peroxide. Pour it directly on the crown. If rot is present it
should fizz and bubble. Retreat every 3 days until you see no more bubbling. Keep
the plant in low light and drier than normal. You can also use Physan 20. Pseudomonas
is the bacteria responsible for alot of the crown rot in Phals. Use 1 tsp/ 1 gallon water
when you treat with Physan. Also keep good air circulation around the plant as well.
Since bacterial rot will become systemic quite rapidly, chances of recovery may not
be great if this has occured. Hopefully you may get a keiki.

[janet_a]

dump some grocery store cinnamon in the crown after it's dried out from the H2O2 too. it's anti fungal.

[Vivienne]

Steve - thanks for starting this thread. I too have a Phal which looks similar to yours and has done nothing since the blooms faded. I suspected crown rot then but it was a species so couldn't pass it up. The roots are growing very well but nothing up top. The existing leaves look fine... just no new ones.

Guess I'll do the Hydrogen peroxide and cinnamon routine. Keep us posted.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Well, I guess there might be a thing called crown death, which your plant MAY have. But since I don't see the tell tail wetness, I would not call it rot (bacterial rot). It may be that the leaf that was growing there died for some reason, or it may be just down inside the area that is black and will some time soon start to protrude. Either way, I would not worry about the plant, as there does not seem to be the worrisome rot present. If the crown is dead, you should see one or more basal keikis start. I just unpacked a bunch of plants bagged up for the time I was at the Costa Mesa show, and found that I had carelessly let the moss of a border line Phal get up on to the crown area, and the plant was a goner with crown rot when unpacked. But, the wet looking rot was quite obvious, if quite small, but was into the crown, and the leaves just fell off. Live and learn.

[Brooke]

I can't tell from the picture but it looks like a leaf and not the crown. Crown rot is when the very center of the plant rots and the upper most leaf will yellow and fall off within a matter of days - you will know it when you see it.

What kind of light and temps is the plant receiving. This time of year in Canada, it needs to be in a window that receives sun at least a couple hours a day, even more direct sun is better. Phals also require warmth to grow and if not warm enough, they will just sit and do nothing.

Try increasing the light and temperature and see if the plant perks up.

Brooke

[Steve B]

Crown Death? Almost sounds like rehashed medieval term. I guess this makes some sense to my limited knowledge. This orchid has been like this for several months now with no signs of rot progression. The upper leaves have shown no sign of yellowing; in fact the rest of the orchid is in fairly good shape. The leaves are a little droopy, but it was this way when I bought it.

I have given it 2 treatments of hydrogen peroxide; both times it fizzed for 5 mins. or so.

It sits in my SSW bay window, grouped with all my other orchids. It gets direct sun in the winter, when we get sun (seems like once a week or less right now). The rest of the season it's behind sheers. My temps. are definitely on the cool side. The thermostat is set for 20C during the day and virtually shuts off overnight. My digital hydrometer/thermometer usually reads 18C-26C daytime, 18C-13C night time and my humidity is between 30%-50%.

Steve

[mayres]

In my experience a "dead crown" or "rotten crown" can be very difficult to detect. The majority of incidents happen as Cynthia suggests - the upper leaf or two yellow and fall off - usually in a matter of days. In super bad cases EVERY leaf falls off. However, on the other extreme I have had plants where the crown has disappeared and it was not obvious at all what happened. Either the teeny tiny internal leaf(s) rotted before I realized they were even there, they were ingested by bug(s), or some other unknown reason. Regardless the telltale sign you have noted occurs - no growth for ages........Then all of a sudden you see something like a flower spike shoot out of the middle or a basal keiki appear and you realize - "oh! So that is what happened?!"

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

I have had a couple of Vandaceous orchids lose the growing center to a wet bacterial rot, which acted to start keikis at the base of the plant, only find a number of months later, the plant must have started a keiki right down inside the crown, and continued to grow absolutely normally. Can't tell there was a problem except that a few leaves at the level of the problem are disfigured somewhat. They are a little bit short, and have some black fungal marks.

[Steve B]

Here is a shot after 2 treatments with H202.

Steve

[articuno75]

That looks like a new leaf coming in !!!!

[silkymoon]

Originally Posted by Cynthia, Prescott, AZ

I have had a couple of Vandaceous orchids lose the growing center to a wet bacterial rot, which acted to start keikis at the base of the plant, only find a number of months later, the plant must have started a keiki right down inside the crown, and continued to grow absolutely normally. Can't tell there was a problem except that a few leaves at the level of the problem are disfigured somewhat. They are a little bit short, and have some black fungal marks.

Hi Cynthia, my vanda, the last 2 leaves came in black out of the middle I pulled them out, is a nice looking plant I dont want to loose it. what do you suggest I pour down the middle?
Maria

[kmarch]

Steve,

I didn't weigh in on this until now because I dont' grow very many Phals but honestly I thought it looked pretty normal to beginwith. A little dirty perhaps but nothing serious. I agree with articuno that it looks like a new leaf coming. I think you're fine.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Maria, you probably just need to wait. If you want to try something, you could pour some kind of hormone down the center, just as an experiment.

[jerrymeola]

I agree with Cynthia and kmarch that the plant looked OK to me. It looks even better after the h2o2 treatment. You may have had a minor bug infestation or just washed out some dirt.

I have been saying recently that members are too quick to use catch words indiscriminately.

Rot is a rapid bacterial growth and if it attacks the crown I guess we call it crown rot, but it is not common in commercial greenhouses. Every commercial grower top waters all orchids Phals included. Mine usually have a half inch of water in the crowns. High air circulation evaporates the water in hours. They do not rot from it. I find the reason is usually root damage.

Steve if you have rot the plant would have been in the garbage the second week. If it was a minor (not spreading) bug infestation the peroxide helped. Peroxide is relatively safe anytime.

If you bought the Phal 6 months ago and it was in bloom or just finished then it was a hot house plant that had been cooled to get it to flower off season. It then missed the growing season and now probably missed its normal flowering season. Now it is in the growing season and the leaf is starting.

It is the normal life cycle of a Phal forced to bloom out of season. It takes about 18 months of nothing to get back on cycle. This is the reason I recommend so much against buying half price plants from the 'rescue' area. You could buy a young plant watch it grow and flower in less time for less money. Phals normally flower from liner in less than 18 months.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by jerrymeola

Rot is a rapid bacterial growth and if it attacks the crown I guess we call it crown rot, but it is not common in commercial greenhouses. Every commercial grower top waters all orchids Phals included. Mine usually have a half inch of water in the crowns. High air circulation evaporates the water in hours. They do not rot from it. I find the reason is usually root damage.

I'm relieved to read this. I spend just as much time drying the crown area and trying to prevent water from getting trapped as I do, watering the plants. A myth, finally put to rest.

[kmarch]

Jerry can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think Jerry was saying it is a myth that water sitting in the crown of an orchid causes rot. I think he was saying that in commercial greenhouses crown rot is uncommon because the great air circulation very quickly dries up any water sitting in the crowns. I believe you are wise to dry the water out of the crowns of your plants.

Let me know if I misunderstood, Jerry.

[sandra]

Originally Posted by kmarch

Jerry can correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think Jerry was saying it is a myth that water sitting in the crown of an orchid causes rot. I think he was saying that in commercial greenhouses crown rot is uncommon because the great air circulation very quickly dries up any water sitting in the crowns. I believe you are wise to dry the water out of the crowns of your plants.

Let me know if I misunderstood, Jerry.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I spend too much time wicking up the water in the crown while watering. Air circulation and fans going will eliminate potentially trapped water afterwards but even prior to placing them back on the shelves, is what I meant.

[brookn]

When I water my Phals. I use the sprayer and spray the leaves and the crown, then I leave them to soak for a bit. I find tipping them on their sides with a fan going in the room dries them out, and I have not had crown rot problems. The ones that are in bark, I tip them up against something so that the bark does not fall out. I also spray the crown when drying with some cinnamon spray for an added preventative. It is very dusty here, and I started doing this simply because I would get done with soaking and then have to take the added time to clean the leaves, I simply do not have the extra time it took to do this. I have some watering to do today, I can get a pic if anyone is interested.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by sandra

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I spend too much time wicking up the water in the crown while watering. Air circulation and fans going will eliminate potentially trapped water afterwards but even prior to placing them back on the shelves, is what I meant.

Ah, ok. VIVA LA AIR CIRCULATION!

[sandra]

Originally Posted by brookn

I also spray the crown when drying with some cinnamon spray for an added preventative. It is very dusty here, and I started doing this simply because I would get done with soaking and then have to take the added time to clean the leaves, I simply do not have the extra time it took to do this. I have some watering to do today, I can get a pic if anyone is interested.

I'm interested brookn. Pics please!

Also, I know Jenny just recently posted your cinnamon spray solution but would you mind once again giving it to me?

[brookn]

Sandra, I am having a time uploading, I got one pic, and I have another to water tomorrow, so I will take some more pics in the a.m. when I water it. I have had it with pic uploading for the day, (can you tell I am a bit frustrated )

[articuno75]

Sandra~ The recipe is under the thread The Best Stuff Ever!!! (It is too )

[brookn]

Okay Miss Sandra, here is a pic of my WM rescue Phal drying. It has been hosed and sprayed with cinnamon spray, and is sitting on my drainer. I propped it on an old ice cube tray to show you, but it is established enough that I can lay it fully on it's side without losing bark. I am still having upload issues (I think it is me). I have some more pics that are more detailed, but I gotta go to work in a bit, and it takes me forever to load the silly pics.

[articuno75]

Mine get far wetter than that. By the time I get done watering, you'd thought they was on fire or something, the way I douse them. I guess I'm lazy. I just tip them over enough to drip out extra water then I put them back on the shelf.

[PhalPal]

My first thought was that if it were truly crown rot the Phal would have been a goner by now. Crown rot moves fast. It doesn't mean something will not develop, so I would treat it with the above remedies and hope for the best.

[tizzycat]

There is nothing left to add, except good luck.

[brookn]

Sandra,

One more, this is my Phal. Yu Pin Valentine. I hosed it earlier.

[BunnytheOrchid]

Hmmm these pictures Brookn make me think I'm too cautious when watering my phals. I'm one of those like Sandra described that swab and wipe away any and all water in the crown. I don't think I give my orchids enough credit. After all, no one in nature goes around with a q-tip to help them out

[articuno75]

Remember, out in the open there is ample air circulation! Indoors is a different story. Make sure that your indoor enviroment has good air circulation. When it does, disease like crown rot is literally non existant

[Steve B]

Here is a pic of this phal 2 months later. I guess it just has to grow.

Steve

[patticake]

Wow, Steve! It's looking great! I think it likes you!

[Tobi]

Good job Steve, it looks like it's well on its way!

[sandra]

OMG, brookn.....I'm just now seeing your post for the first time, over a month later. I'm so sorry for the late response, I hope there's no statute of limitations on my thanking you for your reply and the pic I asked you to post. In the positive, the info. you posted is as useful now as it would have been then!

Thank you and again, apologies for the late response here.

[berkeleysgr8]

I purchased a peloric equestris species plant that arrived with similar black stuff in the crown. I was totally panicked and emailed the supplier because I thought it has suffered crown rot in transit. I was told that it was common for the plants to get that black gunk in the high humidity conditions in Florida. I was advised that I could clean it off if I wished. I used a diluted Physan solution and Q-tips to clean it and discovered that everything was fine underneath the black stuff (I assume on my plant it was mildew of some sort).

[Steve B]

just an update

[berkeleysgr8]

Good to see that the crown is growing now!

[Steve B]

3 Months later - I found this today.



Steve B

[articuno75]

How awesome is that? And to think only a few months ago you thought it was rotten What a treat! Can't wait to see it bloom

[Steve B]

Thanks Jenny,

It looks very similar to this (if you're curious), but of course just a noid.

Harlequin

Steve

[articuno75]

If it looks anything like that bloom, it's worth hounding over. Yummy!!!

[Steve B]

Not much to complain about here except some damage from staking. Just thought I would give an update.

Quite the difference from February, although I am not expecting a record setting # of blooms.

Viva la coir!!!

Steve

[berkeleysgr8]

Nice to see that a plant you'd almost given up hope for is actually going to BLOOM! That is fantastic!

[solay]

Wow, it's come a long way from almost dead to blooms. Congratulations!!!

[11Orchid126]

Nice growing!

[Steve B]

Well,
It finally bloomed. As I stated before, not a record setting # of blooms, 2, but I'm still happy with the progress and I am hoping I can make a show for next year.

It does look similar to the link I posted above.

Cheers,
Steve

[Vivienne]

YAY Steve! What fabulous results!!!!! That's a beauty.

[sandra]

It's a show stopper with these 2 magnificent flowers Steve.

Sogo Fireball and a Harlequin just like this one is on the top of my "to buy" list.

What a happy ending! Congratulations, big time on your perseverance and success with this!

[articuno75]

Gorgeous, !!!

[dolo3]

Definitely worth nursing back to health and worrying over. Those are some pretty blooms. Thanks for updating your thread.

[Rocinante]

Way to battle back, little phallie!

[berkeleysgr8]

Gorgeous blooms! Looks similar to some of the Everspring King (I've also seen it printed as Ever Spring King) crosses! Love it!