Phalaenopsis dies in s/h

[NancyG]

It happened so fast! I had replanted it 6 months ago because some of the roots had rotted. It had many long healthy roots and was a good size plant. New roots were growing. Of all the orchids I recently replanted into s/h this one took the longest to adjust. It had dropped 2 leaves initially but grew 3 new ones. Then all of a sudden in the last 2 days the new leaves started tuning yellow. It had a brown mark where one of the leaves had dropped off but it was hard not soft. I water with worm tea. I would flush out the container once a week and just kept the bottom reservoir full. It was in the pellets from First Rays.

Yesterday I was going to take the plant out of it's medium and check to see what was going on. I just touched the plant and all the leaves fell off. I took the plant out of it's container and the roots were all rotten except for one. I thought that a plant in s/h couldn't rot. What happened? Could the roots have grown down to the bottom reservoir and rotted and spread to rest of plant? Do I have to be careful of the others in s/h so this doesn't happen to them? They are doing very well right now.

I would welcome some advice. I was hoping s/h would be my solution to keeping my orchids happy.

NancyG

[janet_a]

condolences. i had two in s/h and they both lost all their roots. one is still hanging on by a thread in sphag n bag; the other came back in SnB and was in a pot, and then got stem rot and fell apart.

i took it as an object lesson not to try phals in s/h (at least not in my conditions).

[justloveorchids]

Thats scary but i guess it makes sense because i have several Phals that despite being repotted earlier this year when their roots were only half way down the pot they now have roots that have grown through the bottom of the pot

So I guess even if you put a pot within a pot you could still get some roots grow through into the reservoir of water

Maybe its the design of the reservoir bit thats wrong

[tom499]

I dont use the reservoir after nearly losing one of my oldest orchids through root rot.

I find using hydroton balls like normal mix does give good results

[justloveorchids]

Tom.........So am I correct in that you use normal orchid pots and simply use Hydroton balls instead of Orchid Potting mix

Is Hydroton a special form of the ECA ?

My local Hydroponics shop sell ECA but have not yet discovered what make .......does it matter ?

[tom499]

Not sure what ECA is.

Yes, I use it as normal mix, Its good and free draining between the hydroton balls, but gives good water retention.

Its probably best to use on thick rooted plants, but smaller hydroton balls would be fine with thinner roots plants.

[justloveorchids]

ECA= expanded clay aggregate of which Hydroton is one make

[WIB]

I don't know whether S/H is responsible for this effect. I certainly have had phals languish for a while in other media then die in a day. It's a really dramatic thing they do. Contrary to their reputation as an easy, beginner sort of orchid, I have found them rather picky, at least in my conditions. I think of them as my princess-and-pea orchids, much more fastidious than the paphs, cattleya-types, and even onicidum group.

[janet_a]

Originally Posted by justloveorchids

ECA= expanded clay aggregate of which Hydroton is one make

also

aliflor (?)
hydro klorel
primeagra

[arleneg]

Nancy,

Did you wash the clay pellets well? From what I understand, PrimeAgra, Hydroton, etc., need to be rinsed well, soaked, rinse again, then soaked in Physan 20/Superthrive (or KLN) solution, before using.

Were the new roots growing into the reservoir? If so, that could've contributed to rotting the new roots.

I'm just rambling my thoughts on here.

[MariahK]

I agree WIB they are my pickier plant as well my phaps, oncids and catts all thrive but any deviation with a phal and it dies and sometimes I saw no reason for the quick demise! where as my oncids are almost impossible to kill!

[Orchid664]

I have a number of Phals in S-H, both species and hybrids, and they are doing very well. Some have put their roots into the nutrient solution, but they do not rot. One thing Phals are picky about is the temperature of the water, they do not like cold water. I am growing in expanded clay in a 2-pot system and fertilize with MSU for tap water.

[jay]

I have most of my plants in Hydroton. I only have a few in PrimeAgra. I have heard mixed reviews about the PrimeAgra. There are some that say they stay too wet and can cause rot. I have not had that problem, but living in the desert drys things out very quickly.

I do keep an oscillating fan on the orchids at all times to help prevent rot. The only way that S/H is going to work is with a good air exchange. This oxygen at the roots is what keeps the rot away. If it is stagnant and clogged, then it is just like wet bark which will allow the anaerobic bacteria (rot) to take hold. (This is at least my understanding)

Jay

[patlee]

I have to disagree with WIB and MariahK. I have had a couple of paphs for two or three years and they just sit there and grow a leaf or two a year-- but they never flower. On the other hand, my phals flower regularly and profusely. They grow new leaves, loads of roots and this year I am the proud parent of a couple of keikis! They are just what the doctor ordered for a person with a limited collection and limited growing conditions.
Besides, I love the flowers!!

[WIB]

I just keep hoping that one day I'll get it right. I suspect that one of my problems is winter temperatures that are too cool in my house. All of my orchids are, more or less, windowsill orchids. I may try using a heater in the middle of the day to get them to a warmer temperature. I half thought of getting a seedling warming pad and putting it under the humidity tray. -- Bill

[Tony]

Nancy

I just moved a couple of my plants over to s/h two pot system. The instructions and the store that sold them to me told me not to put more water in the pot until the pot was dry. They also said it doesn't hurt to let it sit dry for a day or two. Maybe you just had too much water in the pot. Tony

[eldone]

I have been using Prime Agra for about a year now. I am using the single pot system with holes drilled in the sides of the pot just up off of the bottom. I did have some problems but that was attributed to using a fertilizer that contained urea as a nitrogen source. Urea has been identified as a link in pseudomonas disease in Phalaenopsis. If your fertilizer contains urea based nitrogen it will kill the roots which is what happened to mine.

I have also heard that some S/H pellets apparently will turn quite acidic even after the initial rinsing. Apparently they have to be soaked and rinsed several times prior to using them. I did not have this problem with the ones I have but I have heard that some of the newer batches do have this problem. This acidic condition apparently has a more adverse affect on certain orchids than others. I am not sure which ones are more sensitive but I thought it was either a Paph or Prag. It is my understanding that the lower PH does not affect the Phal as much as some of the others.

I also agree that air circulation is very important. I have also been told that it is almost impossible to over water using the S/H method. This is the reason that I switched over to S/H method.

I am still learning but have not thrown the towel in yet on S/H method of growing.

By the way did the leaves show any signs of shriveling prior to falling off?

[NancyG]

thanks everyone for replying

I did soak the pellets before using. The phal had been growing well for about 6months although the slowest to adjust to s/h. I don't use fertilizer just worm tea. It could be that I didn't let the worm tea dry off all the way and I usually keep the reservoir full. I thought that was the way you were supposed to do it. I won't do that anymore.

The leaves didn't even shrivel they just started turning yellow and when I went over to touch it they just fell off. Very disappointing.

I'll get this right one of these days.

NancyG

[janet_a]

the two pot system is tricky; i never knew how much water was actually in the thing. i'm sticking with the the single pot/holes-in-side system. and i also have a fan on 24/7. (iced cofee cups do quite well; just punch a couple holes in with an awl or ice pick.)

[morphiii]

Originally Posted by NancyG

thanks everyone for replying

I did soak the pellets before using. The phal had been growing well for about 6months although the slowest to adjust to s/h. I don't use fertilizer just worm tea. It could be that I didn't let the worm tea dry off all the way and I usually keep the reservoir full. I thought that was the way you were supposed to do it. I won't do that anymore.

The leaves didn't even shrivel they just started turning yellow and when I went over to touch it they just fell off. Very disappointing.

I'll get this right one of these days.

NancyG

Sounds like leaf or crown rot to me. Do you have a pic you can post, so that we can see?

[NancyG]

No I don't. I threw it away. It had a dark spot where the one of the leaves was attached to the main support. It was hard not soft. When I took the plant out of the container all the roots which had been beautiful when I planted it were sodden and mushy. I thought this couldn't happen in sh?

I keep all my plants outside except when they are blooming. They get good air circulation. The only thing I can think is that I should have let the reservoir dry out completely and even wait a couple of days before filling again.

It was such a beautiful plant!!!

NancyG

[11Orchid126]

I know that the current thinking is that worm tea, because it's so natural, can be strong without damaging a plant. Since I have been using it my experiences with it have led me to believe otherwise. I think that for some plants the ratio of tea to water must be very dilute or they suffer. Or perhaps they can take a stronger mixture on the leaves but not on the roots. The trick is finding out which ones without killing them. I would be interested in hearing if others have reached a similar conclusion.

[Tony]

Janet

Try the Luwasa pots. They have a two pot system with a guage so you can tell how much water is in it. I purchased mine from interior water garders. www.interiorwatergardens.com. Tony

[janet_a]

yeah, that's the one all the roots died in.

[Tony]

Janet

Sorry to hear that. I will let you know how mine do after they are in the system for a few months. Right now with the warm weather we are having in NJ, I have mine still outside. Moving them inside will be the key. Tony

[Orchid664]

I am growing orchids in the high desert and went to S-H because most plants dried out too fast, but growing in S-H doesn't mean that all types of orchids should be watered the same way. For plants that like a wet/dry cycle, like Catts & Laelias, water should not be added until the reservoir is dry. For plants that do not like to dry out, Phals, Paphs, some Oncidiums, you should not let the reservoir go dry. The best way to tell how much water remains when using the 2-pot systems, is to pick up the plant/inner pot and look. The guages on most systems are not reliable, and should not be used to determine how much water is in the reservoir. They are only helpful when adding water or nutrient solution; you should add until the guage just moves. The guidelines on the guages are for regular houseplants, not orchids. If you have terrestrials, then you will need to add more water, often half filling the reservoir.

[Miki]

Hi NancyG,
Sorry about your plants.
This is my experience with phals and s/h (2 holes on the side).

It is Spring here in Australia and I have changed 25 my phals over to s/h for nearly 2 months. They are all doing very well, with new root and leaf growth. One is even in spike believe it or not!

I was told by Ray (First Ray) that it is essential to wait for new growth before plunging (haha) in to s/h. It has to do with the growth hormone levels within the plant- too technical for me.

I have known other people who have had phals struggle for over 5 months in s/h before recovering from root rot because they changed over when there were no new growth.

I hope that helps.

[Miki]

Originally Posted by Orchid664

I am growing orchids in the high desert and went to S-H because most plants dried out too fast, but growing in S-H doesn't mean that all types of orchids should be watered the same way. For plants that like a wet/dry cycle, like Catts & Laelias, water should not be added until the reservoir is dry. For plants that do not like to dry out, Phals, Paphs, some Oncidiums, you should not let the reservoir go dry. The best way to tell how much water remains when using the 2-pot systems, is to pick up the plant/inner pot and look. The guages on most systems are not reliable, and should not be used to determine how much water is in the reservoir. They are only helpful when adding water or nutrient solution; you should add until the guage just moves. The guidelines on the guages are for regular houseplants, not orchids. If you have terrestrials, then you will need to add more water, often half filling the reservoir.

Thanks Orchid664 for the watering tip. I have just converted 5 Catts in s/h, the wet/dry cycle makes sense. It has been only a few days, so it is too early to make an assessment.

[NancyG]

I did replant the phal when it was growing new roots.

I have layed off the watering of all my other orchids in s/h.

Also I discovered in my sprayer that I was using filled with the worm tea solution that mold had gotten in there. I suppose I could have done in my own orchid just because I wasn't observant enought of the condition of the sprayer. Is this possible that the solution was contaminated and that did in the phal? I'm being extremely careful now. No overwatering or over misting.

All the others in s/h look good.

NancyG

[Vivienne]

Nancy - I just discovered that I'm developing either mold or algae in my sprayer too. Not happy about that. Time to adjust my methods a little bit.

[sandra]

Nancy, It's the process of elimination through trial and error that get's you exactly to where you need to be, a good thing! Better one Phal than the whole lot! I don't like the thought of having a reservoir for my Phals, they can be less forgiving than other orchids when it comes to watering, it's just too easy to get in to trouble with them and also, easy enough to avoid so I don't tempt it with them and s/h. You get a little in the crown and it's the kiss of death, you keep them too wet = death, too dry = death. I need to have better control on what they're getting and when to feel comfortable with s/h for them. The pellets from First Rays are good to use without a s/h environment although, not alone for Phals but you could add some chopped sphag. or coconut coir with charcoal and perlite which make a great mix for the Phals. Or, all alone for any Cattleyas and alliances that you may have. All of my Catts are in Hydroton (clay pellets) and charcoal.

Sorry to read of your loss. I hope by now that you've replaced it and maybe, replaced it with more than one!

[NancyG]

Sandra,

I'm working on the replacing. Thanks for the advice.

NancyG

[GiovannaD]

It happened to me as well Nancy.
I have changed all my phals to s/h however I discovered that 2-3 months after the initial adaptation, my biggest phal stopped growing and stalled, then within 2 weeks its leaves turned yellow one after the other and it just died. It is the only casualty I've had since I switched to s/h and I realised it happened because I used the reservoir technique. It didn't work for me, so now I use the pellets in normal pots and water them as always.
The s/h media worked for me even for a leafless phal which had all its leaves and crown sunburnt and only a few air roots survived, the ones still in the media. I didn't repot (it was already switched to s/h before the sunburn) and kept watering. Now 1 month later it's growing a new crown and has 2 (small) leaves.
So my advice is, it happens sometimes, the plant just can't take it and dies.

[daemondamian]

Hello,
I have a book that I'm reading at the moment that I seriously recommend if you're going to do orchids in semi-hydro, hydroponics, hydroculture etc with orchids and inert non-organic media [even combining both organic and non-organic].

It's called World of Orchids (The) - A Practical Guide to Cultivating Orchids in Soilless Culture by ROSS, JACK.

It has a section about using organic fertilisers such as manure, kelp, etc in hydroponic systems [including static/resevoir & he calls it Hydro-organics] versus chemical fertilisers and lists a few problems with using them in hydroponic systems with orchids:

• solutions need to be changed more often
• organic solutions aren't stable
• growers have found it necessary to flush more often
• chlorine diminishes effectiveness of solution
• can't measure TDS for EC until stuff breaksdown and makes measuring pH more complicated.

The most important and hopefully relevant problem though is Organic fertilizer oxygen problems- oxygen starvation of plant roots -:

• low oxygen especially on hotter days
• rapid fall in dissolved oxygen
• bigger problem with more micro-organisms that compete with plant roots for oxygen

For these reasons I've decided to leave organic ferts for now for use on plants treated normally [not in any kind of hydroponic, semi-hydro, hydroculture system- with a water resovoir or hydroponic like irrigation], though I might give it a try sometime in the future.

Hope this helps someone
Damian.

[NancyG]

Hi Daemondamian,

Thanks for the info.

I don't keep my phals in strict s/h anymore. Most of them are in a clay pot with the main group of roots wrapped in sprag and then surrounded with the clay pellets in a clay pot. So far this has worked for me. They are all growing nicely and getting spikes. I'm still a proponent of worm tea and have added companion and essentials per Jerry Meola's advice. All my other orchids like dens and catts are doing well in the s/h. Since the very hot days are gone here in S Florida I've moved a bunch of orchids to sunnier location and most of them are sending up spikes. I don't keep them in too much sunlight in the hotter temps.

NancyG

[tinabee]

I know this is a really old thread, but I've found that if I use the two stage pots (inner pot is a net pot and outer is solid) w/ water gauge, those plants have been doing awesome for me, I think because air management is much better. I had root rot problems with the two-holed translucent plastic pots. In high SW FL humidity, air management is more of a problem with those pots. I liken it to wrapping yourself with saran wrap in 85 degree weather with a 79 degree dewpoint and only two holes for ventilation. NOT FUN.

A few of my plants recovering from the two-holed pots are now planted in normal bottom-draining pots with hydroton. I'll be keeping fertilizer off of these guys until I see new leaf and root growth.