Dendrobium Emma White- black spots + yellow leaf

[Stefka]

Hi,

I've bought this orchid last week and i've noticed black spots at the back of one of the leaves. I am totally new to Orchids and I have no idea what it is.

This leaf has also become yellowish within a day. I've placed this orchid by a window facing west-north so the sun only comes out late on it. it is 4pm now and the window is still in the shade. And also the weather isn't that good in England.
ive only watered it once since I've got it. the side with the spots is the one facing the window.
Any kind of help would be much appreciated as i'm not sure what is the problem.
Also I've noticed that quite a few roots are coming out. does it need repotting?

Many thanks,

Stéfka

[tizzycat]

I don't have any dens Stefka, apart from that one leaf the plant looks really healthy, I'm sure someone will be along shortly to give you the right advice.

Welcome to the forum.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by tizzycat

I don't have any dens Stefka, apart from that one leaf the plant looks really healthy, I'm sure someone will be along shortly to give you the right advice.

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks a lot... the rest of the plant looks healthy indeed so im just hoping that the problem won't propagate to the other leaves. It's my 1st orchid so i really don't want to kill it.

[brookn]

I could be wrong, but that looks like mites. I would give it a spray with some neem, another in one week, another in two weeks, and once a month after until you are sure you have taken care of the little buggers.

Also, I would not repot as they love to be potbound. You might try some artificial lighting, they really do like quite a bit of light. Mine are outside, and get just a bit less light than my cattleyas.

[Tobi]

Srefka,
I believe you have a Phalaenopsis type Dendrobium. Alot of mine are losing
their leaves from the older canes right now. This is quite normal. At times
they will have these speckled black spot or patches of black before they turn
yellow and fall off. If there were mites you would see them moving with a
magnifying glass on the underside of the leaves along very fine webs. As
long as the new growth leaves are not experiencing this, I would not worry.
They also need alot of light, so I would move them to a south to southwest
window. Sheltered light in a southern window.

[jbigio]

Dendrobium often loss the lower older leaves which as Tobi said often get the spotting you are seeing. The rest of the plant as far as I can see looks good. Its true that Dendrobium don’t like being repotted often but when it’s needed I try not to disturbed the roots as much as possible and they seem to do ok.

[Stefka]

Thanks a lot for your suggestions. I don't see anything moving to the naked eyes, i need to buy a magnifying glass and check more carefully.
I've wiped the leaf with a white tissue and nothing came off and it's not sticky either. and no dusty stuff either.
Do you think i should wash the leaves with soapy water to prevent?
my question might be stupid but which one are the older canes? are they the smaller ones?

[Tobi]

Originally Posted by Stefka

Do you think i should wash the leaves with soapy water to prevent?
my question might be stupid but which one are the older canes? are they the smaller ones?

If there is no visible sign of insect infestations, you don't need to wash the
leaves. It won't hurt to if you are concerned.
The older canes are the ones where the previous spikes and blooms can from.
They can be smaller as the new canes are usually taller once they mature.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by Tobi

If there is no visible sign of insect infestations, you don't need to wash the
leaves. It won't hurt to if you are concerned.

i think i'll do it anyway as i'm not sure if there are any insect or not on it.

Originally Posted by Tobi

The older canes are the ones where the previous spikes and blooms can from.
They can be smaller as the new canes are usually taller once they mature.

the cane with the problem is not the one where the last blooms were: that's the bigger one. On the pictures the yellow leaf is on the smallest cane. and it is also not the lowest leaf, it is actually the 2nd one from the bottom. i really hope that it is just an old leaf. today the leave is even more yellow (if you compare with yesterday's photos)

[brookn]

Hi it looks like you may have some pitting in the leaves next to it, but I can't tell for sure. If it is, my guess is still bugs. Washing the leaves might do the trick, but I would use the neem spray. The only reason I still think it's bugs is that mine was doing the same thing, and lost two leaves before I sprayed. I try to keep it sprayed once a month as it is outside, and it is putting out all kinds of new growth now.

[Stefka]

OK I've washed the leaves of my Den yesterday. I didn't find ant bugs or anything on it.

Anybody knows if neem spray is available in the UK?

i've looked at what i've have at home and i found something called "Provado Bug Killer". on orchid.org.uk they recommend it to kill lots of different bugs but if its mites it won't treat them. they recommend Bio Liquid Derris Plus or Bug Free. have you heard of them?

What shall I do? you are right Brookn other leaves starts yellowing. This morning i've noticed that another leave is loosing its green. On another cane this time and it is the lowest one. it's not the whole leaf but it comes off in small yellow spots like it's been beaten.

[brookn]

Stefka,
I use Garden Safe that I get from Wal Mart here in the States for approx $5. I know that Cynthia has reccomended this. It says Fungicide 3-in-1 on the bottle, but Cynthia has pointed out is not a fungicide, but great for getting rid of bugs esp. mites. When this happened to my plant I was afraid that it was going to croak on me. The closer I looked the plant over the more I saw small signs of damage. This happend after I had put it outside, and I think the mites could have come from the tree that it is under (covered in ivy). Anyway, I keep it sprayed, i let off for a while, and big mistake. It looks like it might be sending out 3 spikes right now yay! Time will tell, I am excited.

Here is a link to the Garden Safe so you know what to look for. I am not sure you can get it in the UK. I bought it right before Cynthia's post about it, just looked at labels and was pleasantly surprised it had neem (I end up having to order everything cause I live in the middle of nowhere)


http://www.gardensafe.com/

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by brookn

Stefka,
Here is a link to the Garden Safe so you know what to look for. I am not sure you can get it in the UK. I bought it right before Cynthia's post about it, just looked at labels and was pleasantly surprised it had neem (I end up having to order everything cause I live in the middle of nowhere)


http://www.gardensafe.com/

THanks for that, i will try to find it. I went to homebase (DIY shop) and couldn't find anything with neem in it. I've got other leaves turning yellow now and i'll need to act fast. I will have a look at the DIY shop round the corner tomorrow to check if they have any garden safe but my guess is that it's only sold in the USA. If i can't find it i will order it. hopefully i will find an online shop to get it.
and by the way congrats for the 3 spikes

[brookn]

Thanks for the congrats, I am pretty new to owning dends, and this is a victory for me. When I got my first one, I was in a panic, then it aborted the spike it had when it was shipped, more panic hee hee. They are very lovely, and I will keep everyone updated on the spike for sure (I thought they were leaves at first, and still could be for all I know lol) I am keeping my fingers crossed. Good luck, something like this can be discouraging, but once you get it taken care of it feels like a huge accomplishment.

[Stefka]

Yes please post some pics of it...

as i said before it is my first orchid and i bought by chance. I went to the shop to get new pots for my other plants and really liked this den.
Unfortunately she has got little hosts in it
But I'm stubborn and i don't want to bring it back to the shop...
In case i don't find any neem based product, can i use any other bug and mite killer?
I've got another one called "Bug clear gun" which also treat mites but i am scared of using it as it may be too strong.
That what it says on it:

"Broad spectrum, multi purpose insecticide.
No mixing, easy to use.
Controls many common garden pests including greenfly, blackfly, whitefly, caterpillars, cabbage aphids and red spider mites.
All listed fruit and vegetables may be sprayed and eaten on the same day.
Suitable for use on flowers, listed fruits and vegetables.

Contains bifenthrin"

[brookn]

I am not sure about the bug clear gun, maybe pm Cynthia, she will know for sure, and she is very good to answer questions. You can use Bayer Rose and flower in the meantime if it is available there, it will kill the live ones but not the eggs, may halt some of the damage, it has imadocloprid (I may have spelled wrong, but it is close). I will try to get some pics this week, I am currently playing hooky from my homework, and i have school, work, my son's football, and daughter's play, girlscouts etc...I am on overload lol.

[Stefka]

oh now that you mention imadocloprid i've got one spray with Imidacloprid, so i believe it is the same stuff. It's called "Provado bug killer".
you must think i've got a lot of insecticide at home. I live in a rented house and this stuff was left by the previous tenants. I'm spaying the den with it now.
How do you manage between your kids and you study and your work? you must be an organisation master.
I only study and work and I find it hard...

[brookn]

I am always amazed at the amount of poison that is in my house, especially since I try to keep from using it. Since I practically live in the woods, sometimes I just can't help having to use it, and then I feel a bit guilty.

Organization? What's that? Hee hee, mostly I feel like I am flying by the seat of my pants. My daughter, who just turned 11 (I like to refer to her as the mouth) will not let me forget anything. I also am an insomniac, I average about 5 or 6 hours of sleep at best, most nights. Sometimes I answer posts here and I think that my brain must have been fried judging what I said lol. I love this forum though, orchids help center me, and the people here are great.

[Stefka]

Ok Today I bought a magnifying glass to check if there are some tiny things on the plant.
And i've noticed little white things. I'm not sure if they are moving though. I tryied to fix them for about a minute and didn't see them moving. can it be mealy bugs? or are there any white mites?
Yesterday I spayed it with Imidacloprid, that should do the trick for mealy bugs? it seems like this morning the plant was in the same condition as last night i.e. as yellow, no more no less.
11 is quite of a tricky age for girl isn't it? they think they are adults and they obvioulsy aren't. Good luck with everything

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Your product contains bifenthrin, a synthetic pyrithroid. As such it is probably OK for orchids, but you may want to keep it off of blooms, or spray very lightly on them. I think this will probably kill the active stage, but not the eggs of mites, so repeat spraying will be necessary, and the timing depends on what kind of mite, if that is really what you have. Nothing beats getting a strong magnifying glass or jewelers loupe (~4X) and seeing what is doing the damage. It may not be an insect at all, so seeing insects really is important.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by Cynthia, Prescott, AZ

Your product contains bifenthrin, a synthetic pyrithroid. As such it is probably OK for orchids, but you may want to keep it off of blooms, or spray very lightly on them.

which product are you refering to? Bug Clear Gun or Provado Bug Killer?

Originally Posted by Cynthia, Prescott, AZ

I think this will probably kill the active stage, but not the eggs of mites, so repeat spraying will be necessary, and the timing depends on what kind of mite, if that is really what you have. Nothing beats getting a strong magnifying glass or jewelers loupe (~4X) and seeing what is doing the damage. It may not be an insect at all, so seeing insects really is important.

What about the little white things that i can see on the top and bottom of the leaves? i can see them with the magnifier glass but not sure of what they are.
I didn't see any webs though. and the black spots are speading on the close leaves too.
All I know is that they don't move much. I sprayed last night the the Provado thing, do you think I can spray with the Bug Clear Gun tonight or tomorrow? I looked around in supermarket or DIY shops and didn't find anything with neem. i found some organic stuff which kills spider mites but they don't say what it is made off. And I'd rather not intoxicate my plant with chemicals...
My poor den

[brookn]

Stefka,
Deep breath, it will be alright. Once you have sprayed, wait a week until you spray again with anything. At first, I was afraid to spray, but now I just blast them pretty good. I am not sure which one Cynthia was referring to, but I know she will probably answer your question soon. It is not going to look any better for a while, maybe a week or two maybe more. Any leaves that are yellowing be prepared that they will continue to yellow and fall off.
You can find the active ingredient for your pesticides on the bottle, it is usually on the front at the very bottom, and in very small writing ( at least here it always is), if not see if they have a website, you should be able to find it there. Hope that helps.
11 is a very tricky age, sometimes she tries to mommy me, doesn't work too well, I'm a psych major lol.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by brookn

Stefka,
Deep breath, it will be alright. Once you have sprayed, wait a week until you spray again with anything. At first, I was afraid to spray, but now I just blast them pretty good. I am not sure which one Cynthia was referring to, but I know she will probably answer your question soon. It is not going to look any better for a while, maybe a week or two maybe more. Any leaves that are yellowing be prepared that they will continue to yellow and fall off.
You can find the active ingredient for your pesticides on the bottle, it is usually on the front at the very bottom, and in very small writing ( at least here it always is), if not see if they have a website, you should be able to find it there. Hope that helps.

Ok I won't spray for 7 days. The Provado thing may have done the trick cos it's been 2 days and the yellowing isn't progressing, well apparently. i actually think that Cynthia is referring to Bug Clear Gun but I will wait for her to confirm to me.
Thank you all guys for your advices and support. My mum has got 1 which is doing very well at hers but she had no idea what was my problem. I don't know how she does, she doesnt give her plant food or anything but water and it is doing very well. she is just that kind of person who knows how to take care of plants instinctively. She's got lots of different plants and none of them die. She usually give them away once they are too big because they are too big for the house.

Originally Posted by brookn

11 is a very tricky age, sometimes she tries to mommy me, doesn't work too well, I'm a psych major lol.

is she the youngest or your son is? Do they fight a lot? I'm the oldest of 2 and I remember that I was always fighting with my brother, my poor parents...

[Stefka]

I found this flying thing in the same room than my den.
Can it be the cause?
No idea what that is.
Thanks

[kmarch]

It's a leafhopper. I've never had one in my orchids so I don't know if they're harmful or not.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by kmarch

It's a leafhopper. I've never had one in my orchids so I don't know if they're harmful or not.

I actually didn't find it on the orchid but in the same room. but i bought my plant in a big store where other plant were sold. Ive got no other plant in this room. as I'm quarantining this orchid

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Yes, it was the Bug Clear Gun that was the synthetic pyrethroid. I just checked the internet for the Provado.
http://www.bayercropscienceus.com/co...2008-13-07.pdf
Good news, you have just treated your plant with imidacloprid, Provado 1.6. The 1.6 refers to 1.6 lbs of active ingredient per gallon, which gives a concentration of 17.4%. If yours has a different concentration, then it isn't the 1.6 version, but we can hope it has at least the imidacloprid that the 1.6 version has. Now, since we don't really know what the problem is, the Provado will not work on mites, but it should kill everything else that sucks on your plants, and the good news is that the Provado should be quite gentle on your plant.

How are the light levels for your plant? Since you don't have direct light for most of the day, I hope it is a very bright location otherwise. As winter progresses, you should get a lot more light in that window, so you will probably have to put up a filmy curtain soon to keep your plant from burning, but you really need all that direct light, shaded about 50%, to keep the plant healthy. Long term lack of light might in fact be what is the problem the plant is having. Bad culture will often cause the loss of a new growth.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by Cynthia, Prescott, AZ

Yes, it was the Bug Clear Gun that was the synthetic pyrethroid. I just checked the internet for the Provado.
http://www.bayercropscienceus.com/co...2008-13-07.pdf
Good news, you have just treated your plant with imidacloprid, Provado 1.6. The 1.6 refers to 1.6 lbs of active ingredient per gallon, which gives a concentration of 17.4%. If yours has a different concentration, then it isn't the 1.6 version, but we can hope it has at least the imidacloprid that the 1.6 version has. Now, since we don't really know what the problem is, the Provado will not work on mites, but it should kill everything else that sucks on your plants, and the good news is that the Provado should be quite gentle on your plant.

I looked on the label and it says it has 0.125g/l imidacloprid no idea if its equivalent to 1.6. all i know is that 2 types were available and i chose the one for houseplants.

Originally Posted by Cynthia, Prescott, AZ

How are the light levels for your plant? Since you don't have direct light for most of the day, I hope it is a very bright location otherwise. As winter progresses, you should get a lot more light in that window, so you will probably have to put up a filmy curtain soon to keep your plant from burning, but you really need all that direct light, shaded about 50%, to keep the plant healthy. Long term lack of light might in fact be what is the problem the plant is having. Bad culture will often cause the loss of a new growth.

The plant used to be on the spot that u can see in the second and 3rd series of photos that I've posted. these photos wer taken in the morning. It is a west window on the first floor of the house. No direct sun on the plant all day til 5pm i've checked. but it is England and the sun isn't bright in winter as it is most of the time cloudy but it is a bright spot. I was planning to buy a filmy curtain for privacy anyway so i could put the plant behind the curtain on my desk which is at the window. Also i bought my plant in homebase so it wouldn't surprise me if this den is the result of a bad culture as you refler to it. I also bought it with no flower on and it was reduced. but i really like the shape of the plant and wanted to rescue it from the bin, where it would have probably ended if i didnt buy it. and also it gives me the surprise of the colour of the flowers when it will bloom...

[Stefka]

I've just moved the plant back to the window and i found this insect on it.
is it the responsible one?

[tizzycat]

isn't that a spider???

Well, as Cynthia says; after spraying with Provado, "IF" it did try to eat your plant it would be in for a nasty surprise.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by tizzycat

isn't that a spider???

Well, as Cynthia says; after spraying with Provado, "IF" it did try to eat your plant it would be in for a nasty surprise.

well it looks like a spider but with wing...

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

I am sure you have a good version of imidacloprid. Maybe someone would like to do the ratios for english/metric to see how it compares. No time right now for that.

[brookn]

Stefka,
I am not sure about the second pic of a bug (looks like it could be a bad bug,not sure though), but the leafhopper can damage the plant if it is like the ones we have here (looks like the ones here). I thought ours were benign, but I found one on one of my phals this summer, and when I shooed it away, could see that where it had been was a spot, freshly chewed. The spot has since healed up but still there. Every time I see one in the house now I assassinate it. Do you have a West or South facing window somewhere? It might give you plant better light than the one it is in. Be sure to acclimate it slowly though. You may need more light, but I think some neem might be in order, I find that 9 out of 10 times when I get a bargain plant from a big chain-type store, they have some sort of pests as well as just being badly treated all around. Neem is as organic as it gets, so you would not have to feel guilty.

Oh the kiddies, my son is 9, they are 14 months apart, and yes I swear their goal is to drive me mad. Somedays I wonder if they argue just because they can. I love them, but they are a handful and a half. I hope you have given your "poor parents" a hug lately lol.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by brookn

Stefka,
I am not sure about the second pic of a bug (looks like it could be a bad bug,not sure though), but the leafhopper can damage the plant if it is like the ones we have here (looks like the ones here). I thought ours were benign, but I found one on one of my phals this summer, and when I shooed it away, could see that where it had been was a spot, freshly chewed. The spot has since healed up but still there. Every time I see one in the house now I assassinate it. Do you have a West or South facing window somewhere? It might give you plant better light than the one it is in. Be sure to acclimate it slowly though. You may need more light, but I think some neem might be in order, I find that 9 out of 10 times when I get a bargain plant from a big chain-type store, they have some sort of pests as well as just being badly treated all around. Neem is as organic as it gets, so you would not have to feel guilty.

Hi Brookn,
I bought some organic insecticide called Vitax Organic RTU. It's written that it is made of natural plant and fish oils (http://www.barleywood.co.uk/products...product=HPC015) so i will use it from now on. About the light. That window is actually facing west, and what you see is rather dark because it is a picture taken in the morning but it is quite bright even in the morning, maybe the photo doesn't look bright because of over-exposure . Unfortunately that's the brightest i can get. i'm in a terraced house windows are either west or east. how to acclimate slowly? put it further away then closer and closer?

Originally Posted by brookn

Oh the kiddies, my son is 9, they are 14 months apart, and yes I swear their goal is to drive me mad. Somedays I wonder if they argue just because they can. I love them, but they are a handful and a half. I hope you have given your "poor parents" a hug lately lol.

yes i've hugged them no worries and i now live abroad (UK) so i cannot argue with my brother anymore, we are now very well behaved when we see each other it takes time but it will happen... good luck with them...

[11Orchid126]

Any insecticide that's good for roses is also good for orchids.

Neem oil works by smothering the insect. A tablespoon of cooking oil (or horiticultural oil) in a quart of water with a dash of dish detergent would also do the same thing.

Your insects may be scale, since they don't move around too much.

[Stefka]

Thanks for the advice i will follow it
Do you all spray your plant once a month to prevent from pest? only asking cos my mum never... that why she cannot give me any advice on this one.
Something interesting happened today.
After spraying the plant on 17th i removed it from the window and put it somewhere with less light. Then, as i wrote in a previous post, no more progression in the yellowing.
Last night i put the plant back at the window and i just got back home today and when i went in my room i noticed that the yellowing is worse. Could the problem be that my plant is getting too much light after bad lighting condition before the purchase?

[brookn]

Hi,
I would say once the leaf started to yellow it was gonna be done for sooner or later. if you notice the leaves turning red then yellow, then I would say they are getting too much light. My dend's leaves have red areas, because it is outside, and I am guessing that it gets more than your plant in the window. red is okay as long as it is not damaging the plant, and trust me if you burn one you will know for sure.

I believe Imadocloprid and Neem are systemic, so they have to build up in the plants system. Spray in a week, then 2 weeks, and then a month. You can spray once a month after that if you want to, that is what I have done, and I learned it all on this forum .

[kmarch]

I'm pretty sure Neem Oil is not a systemic.

[jbigio]

Kmarch your right Neem oil is not systemic and when used on some orchid it will actually cause more problems then it will help. I used it on my African Violets and it took me about 6 months to get them back into condition. I’ve heard the same complaint when used on Phal.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

I have been following/preceding neem oil treatments with a systemic fungicide, and so far I have not seen any worsening of the mottled foliage problem that I suspect is caused by neem oil.

There have been claims that neem oil is systemic, but you would likely do damage to orchids before you got enough exposure to neem to get a systemic effect, and I think it may require whole neem oil, not the hydrophilic extract which is what I have available locally.

[Stefka]

Hello everyone,
This morning the 1st yellow leaf fell out. it's funny because it was full of water. i mean when i pressed it i could mark the leaf (see photo). also new marks have come on one of the leaf. Is it possible that i am overwatering?
i'm watering once a week (twice so far and tmrw shud be 3rd time) and i remove the water in the plate so there are no sitting water.
Please help...

[brookn]

Kevin, Cynthia, I was just going by what it said on a bottle of neem I have here. My apologies.

Stefka, I let mine dry out just a bit before watering, and I use the skewer method. When it feels dry, I let it go another day, then water.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Stéphanie , I really need to know which of those growths are the newest, and which is the oldest. The growths are in a chain pattern, with the new ones growing out of the old ones. If you look carefully at the base, you should be able to tell which grew out of which. If the tall one in the back of picture #2 is the newest, and the little growth to the right is the oldest, which is what I suspect, there is nothing wrong with your plant. It is just losing leaves in the normal pattern for a Dendrobium. Dens only hold leaves for a few years, mostly one to two years, with a few holding them longer. Part of the pattern is for one of the growths to lose the lowest leaves, then the following year, to lose all of the leaves. That is what it looks like on your plant.

[Stefka]

Originally Posted by Cynthia, Prescott, AZ

Stéphanie , I really need to know which of those growths are the newest, and which is the oldest. The growths are in a chain pattern, with the new ones growing out of the old ones. If you look carefully at the base, you should be able to tell which grew out of which. If the tall one in the back of picture #2 is the newest, and the little growth to the right is the oldest, which is what I suspect, there is nothing wrong with your plant. It is just losing leaves in the normal pattern for a Dendrobium. Dens only hold leaves for a few years, mostly one to two years, with a few holding them longer. Part of the pattern is for one of the growths to lose the lowest leaves, then the following year, to lose all of the leaves. That is what it looks like on your plant.

Hi Cynthia. From the photos i've just posted it looks like the biggest growth is above the smaller ones, hence it would be the newest. 2 more leaves fell off today, none of them are on the big cane. So i'm worrying for nothing?
Thank you so much for your help.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Yes, your big fat growth with roots over the side is the newest, and therefore I am sure your plant is acting perfectly normally. Aren't pictures and the internet wonderful? I would say that when your plant is just starting a new growth, it will be time to repot and put the plant into the same pot with the oldest growth near the edge of the pot to give the plant room for the new growths.

[Stefka]

Yeah this is good news! I love this forum and appreciate everyone's knowledge.
Internet is such a great thing....

Thank you all for reassuring me on the healthyness of my plant and thank you to brookn for suggesting me the skewer technique: I've read it on a sticky but didn't apply it and realised by using it that i was overwatering

all the yellow leave have fallen out apart from 1 and no more yellowing has appeared.

anyway my den is in what i believe its rest period now as the flowers are all gone, so i will give it plenty of light and water as necessary. Hopefully it will bloom next year and will post photos of it

Just for fun, here is what i found in my garden this weekend while gardening