Help needed for a dendrobium

[Jo_Pyeweed]

Hi folks !

I got a dendrobium NOID from a friend. My friend bought the plant in March of this year when it was in flower, and she fears that she has slowly been killing it since then. It doesn't seem to be in very good shape.

The plant has a set of two canes with the tallest cane 12 inches in height (pic 1). The smaller cane has a shoot (possible keikei?) midway through (see center of pic 2) and has a small growth at the end of it (pic 3). There is another single cane with no leaves. A third group has a cane that is rotting but has a new growth coming from the side (pic 4). I noticed a slight smell and suspect that it is coming from the rotting stem. I plan to cut the stem just below the rotting portion - is that okay?

The plant is potted in coconut husk chips. The leaves look slightly withered/desicated to me so I suspected rotting roots due to possible overwatering. I moved some bark out about an an inch deep. There aren't too many roots but from the little I could see, I didn't find any that were rotted. Should I remove all the potting media to check whether all roots are okay? Should I repot? The coconut husk chips look to be quite good condition.

Do I need to be worried about the black spot on one of the leaves?

Is it possible to identify what type of dendrobium it is? I have been reading the culture sheets and it appears that I will need to know what type of den it is, for example, to determine whether I need to give it a rest period or not.

It's my first dendrobium so any general plant advice is also appreciated. Thanks !

Cheers,
Jo

[fred]

You have what I call a soft cane denbrobium a type of Den Nobile
the canes look pretty good to me.
the dead cane behind the new growth can be cut off 4th pic
the cane with the small growth on the top of the cane could be a new growth or a flower spike its a little small for me to tell yet. 3rd pic
The other cane does have a keiki growing on it when the roos are about 2 inches long you can remove the keiki and pot it on into another pot.2nd pic
The medium does look good I would not repot the plant yet.

the first link is from the AOS ( culture sheet )
http://www.aos.org/aos/uploadedfiles...redendrobe.pdf
http://www.bribieislandorchidsociety...robium-orchids

other members opinions will also help with this

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Ditto with Fred. It looks to me that the plant has not been getting enough light. These are high light plants like Cattleyas. Don't worry about the condition of the leaves. Nobile types are deciduous, so it is probably time to be loosing leaves, and they can start to look like they are being attacked by fungus, but it is just senescence, and the plant ceasing to support the leaves. Since the plant has started its new growth, you should continue to water while that growth is continuing to grow. Also you probably should not cool this one off until the new growth has ceased growing. What you may find is that this new growth will grow fairly fast, and then stop short of full size because of the lateness of the start. Use a sterilized tool (not alcohol) for any cutting, then dust with a little cinnamon or sulfur.

[Jo_Pyeweed]

Thanks for your response, Fred. I am so relieved to read that the canes look good to you.

I did a quick read on care for Den nobiles and I see that they require low temps and very little water during the winter months. Given that the plant I have has a bud/shoot and a new growth right now, should I continue to water this winter? I am wondering if the plant is following some off-cycle pattern....I am worried that if I decrease watering in winter I might adversely affect the growths.

Thanks !

Cheers,
Jo

[Jo_Pyeweed]

Cynthia - I just saw your response. Thank you ! I am so glad to read that my instinct regarding watering was correct. I have some hope now !! I can rush out and get some more orchids without fear that I will kill them

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

To tell when that new growth is finished growing, watch the top of the growth for new primordial leaves. When you no longer see tiny new leaves embedded down in the center, then the growth is completed, and you can consider the drying off and cool down. As for particulars on this process, I appearantly am not a good judge, as I am not getting good blooming yet, tho I don't really expect your plant to be a candidate for blooming yet. It needs a long season of very good light to build its reserves. 40 to 50% of full sun is good, but not more, except for early morning sun in cool weather, which plants can handle if acclimated gradually. Note also that most Dens get more sun in nature during their dormancy because of lack of cloud cover or lack of leaves on the deciduous trees upon which they grow or both.

[Jo_Pyeweed]

The dendrobium growths (one growth shown in the 3rd pic in my initial post) have turned out to be keikis. I now find additional growths along the stem and right at the bottom. But the big keiki and the shoot have halted their growth - that is, no more new primordial leaves as Cynthia described.

Do I just forget about giving the plant a rest period this year and continue to water given that I have so many keikis and growths ? It seems to me that there are two sets in the pot - each set in a different stage of the growth cycle.

Thanks in advance for any guidance !

Jo

[Jo_Pyeweed]

Oh, and here is a picture of the flowers that my friend took when the plant was last in bloom. You can't blame me for having had my fingers, toes, and eyes crossed that the growths would be blooms and not keikis .

- Jo

[jerrymeola]

Jo you have to wait a while for flowers. Nobiles only flower once a year in the spring after they have had a month of cool weather under 50 degrees at night. The lower temperatures are necessary for flowering.

Very important do not fertilize this plant. Fertilizer will prevent the plant from flowering. Do not reduce the water too much. It is not as critical as the books make you think The canes should not be allowed to shrivel too much (some is unavoidable).

Your orchid looks a lot like a Yamamoto Nobile called Oriental Smiles.

Your flower buds will come out of the cane directly opposite the leaves (or more often across from where a leaf fell off. Nobiles produce most flowers on bare canes.

[Jo_Pyeweed]

Hi Jerry ! Thanks for your post. After Fred and Cynthia responded to my initial post I have been so happy that I don't have a diseased and dying orchid on my hand that I am prepared to wait for a while for the plant to bloom ! I couldn't stop myself from hoping, though, that the growths would be blooms

But by posting the pic, I may have sidetrack you and others from the reason why I updated the thread; see my post just above the one with the flower pic -

"The dendrobium growths (one growth shown in the 3rd pic in my initial post) have turned out to be keikis. I now find additional growths along the stem and right at the bottom. But the big keiki and the shoot have halted their growth - that is, no more new primordial leaves as Cynthia described.

Do I just forget about giving the plant a rest period this year and continue to water given that I have so many keikis and growths ? It seems to me that there are two sets in the pot - each set in a different stage of the growth cycle."

Any guidance on this is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Jo

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Jerry suggests continuing to water. That should take care of the keikis, tho I would not water quite as much as before. First, you are not really late on a change in culture for winter, as my Nobiles are still in full growth, and I expect I will make no change for another month. It isn't really winter yet, you know. In fact, it isn't even fall yet. This winter rest thing is really confusing, and if it weren't for the Baker culture sheets, and his Dendrobium book with a 1000 of these sheets in it, I would still be scratching my head. I have found that winter can be quite a different thing for different species. Generally, as a rule of thumb, I suggest going by the growth/no growth cue, and I generally go by the most important growth, the one from the base, and let the keikis fend for them selves.

As to the new keikis, unless you are really into reproducing plants, I would remove and toss all new keikis. Remember that the plant has to spend energy on these guys at the expense of the important growth at the base. So, to get the healthiest plant, limit the keikis. Since these plants get a cool down in nature, I would see if there is a way to give the plant a moderate cool down, even tho your plant may not be really in good enough condition to bloom, and who knows, maybe you will get a few flowers.

I would also follow Jerry's advice on no fertilizer starting now, well at least no nitrogen. I have had it suggested that potassium as a fertilizer in winter may be good, but I would wait until some of us more experienced and more willing to experiment check this out.

[jerrymeola]

Jo

all those keikis are a result of high levels of Nitrogen fertilizer, although, Nobiles tend to produce a lot of keikis.

No fertilizer is from August until blooms finish in April May.

My recommendation for watering (even though books recommend that you stop) comes from Koichi the head gardener at Yamamoto Dendrobiums. They produce the most beautiful Nobiles.

I buy several hundred from him every year and with almost daily watering (our winter is very dry) 90% of the non-flowering plants, I got from him in October, flowered the same season.

There is lots more information if you search on this sight, but the summary is they like a lot of light (full sun all day in Hawaii year round), lose all their leaves almost every year, flower best on bare canes, and are utterly beautiful.

[Jo_Pyeweed]

Cynthia, Jerry - thank you both. I found your posts very helpful.

This is going to sound horrible to a lot of folks but I don't use any kind of fertilizer on my houseplants, including my orchids. The Phals I have had for 4 years and they are all non-stop bloomers.

Jerry - your worm tea posts have been very persuasive and I am going to be using worm tea on my orchids just as soon as I get my shipment. Should I hold off on worm tea for my Dendrobium until April-May ?

Cynthia - you had observed in an earlier post on this thread that you thought the plant hadn't received sufficient sunlight. You are right - my friend had it in a shady sort of spot. I have moved it gradually closer to the sunlight. It now gets dappled late morning until early afternoon light.

Cheers,
Jo

[11Orchid126]

I usually stop fertilizing my Yamamoto nobiles (which Jerry thinks you have, and be glad, as his plants are gorgeous) around the end of August and the beginning of September, so you're right on target with the fertilizer. I gradually slow down on the watering until Thanksgiving, when I stop completely. For abut three weeks,The plants don't get any water until after Christmas, and then I give only baby sips until the buds are very well developed. They say that if you water too soon, the buds can revert to keikis. The Yamamoto type nobiles do not need the harsh chilling and drying out that regular nobiles do. I resume watering after bloom, and in early spring I resume fertilizing. During the spring and summer the plants get watered and fertilized heavily.

You might want to check Yamamoto's site as he has a wonderful article on nobile culture.

[Sharyn]

Thanks 11orchid126. I stopped fertilizing the end of August. I'm sure I won't have any problems with the temperature requirements and you have answered my own questions regarding the watering process over the winter.

I also found Yamamoto's site and there's a weath of valuable information. For those who would like to check it out, here's the link. Check out the care section. Hopefully, I'll get some blooms from my Oriental Smiles. Good luck with yours. http://www.yamamotodendrobiums.com/

[Jo_Pyeweed]

I am hoping that my dendrobium is what Jerry thinks it is - Oriental Smile. But the plant was from Home Depot, so I think not....

Thanks for all the useful info, everyone.

Cheers,
Jo

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Lots of fine clones and some pretty unusual species show up at Home Depot. Seems the supplier delivers what ever is available in bloom.