Science Experiment: pH levels

[trybalpnoy]

Hi everyone;

Was wondering if anyone has done any experimenting with the pH levels of water?

My parents have recently bought a machine that can make acidic, basic, or neutral pH water. Currently, according to jerry, distilled water is best when using worm tea to water your plants (sorry jerry if I'm paraphrasing you wrong). Well, what about pH levels?

And that's where the basis of my experiment comes into play. Will higher or lower levels of pH have any significance on the microorganisms in the worm tea from www.ourvitalearth.com? I haven't got a hold of that information but eh, doesn't hurt to do a little experimenting...

A little research:
pH (stands for portential hydrogen) is basically the hydrogen ion activity used to measure acidity or basicity. The scale used is 1-14 with 1 being most acidic, 14 being most basic, and 7 being neutral. A pH level of 6.5 or slightly acidic is ideal to most plants because nutrients are most readily available between a range of six to seven. But then again, orchids aren't like most plants. Especially since my mom has told me she's been watering her orchids with a pH level of 8.5!

My hypothesis for my experiment is that all the orchids will grow, but the distilled acidic plants will grow most rapidly.

Unfortunately, I don't have a test plant so i will be testing on my 2 baby orchids I received for my birthday. My controls are same exact everything (amount of worm tea, distilled water, sunlight, humidity, etc). My two variables being tested are acidic and basic pH.

I'm just waiting a call from vitalearth to see if they have the information on what pH levels, both acidic and basic, is ideal without killing off the beneficial microbes.

Anyone have any guesses as to how the results will come about? Experiment to last 4 weeks. I chose 4 weeks because it seems that's the best indicator of seeing the effects of the worm tea.

[Fabolusus]

I don't think 2 plants are enough for a legitimate study. I am working on my bachelors in horticulture, and the studies I've read usually involve many, if not dozens and sometimes hundreds of plants. For a basic case study style experiment, I would take three orchids of the same pedigree and the same age. Assign one as your control, one with a high acidity and one with high basicity. However, this would in no way would this be an accurate study. There are thousands of different orchids, with varying care requirements. I'm sure that there are some that like an acidic ph, but you cannot assume that what will work for one would work for another.

[PhalPal]

Hi Dean - Great Idea! I have a pH meter and have wanted to get into adjusting the pH of my tap water to see if it makes a difference as well. I have not tried the meter yet because the instructions to calibrate it are translated from Japanese and virtually useless. (but very funny!) You have inspired me to get it out and try it this weekend. I live up the road from you in Placentia, Ca (Orange County) so our water is very similiar and I was once an ICU nurse and understand pH very well. My theory is, since pH affects every chemical reaction it must have an influence on fertilizers, insecticides, and what ever else we apply to plants. Question is, does it make enough of a difference? (your theory)

Jerry Meola is a geek/super-grower and affiliated with Our Vital Earth. Obviously he uses worm tea often and conducts growth experiments; I don't know if you are aware of him. I do use worm tea and I have wondered if I were to acidify the pH, would it affect (kill?) the microbes? Would the uptake of nit/pot/phos be greater? Please keep me up on what you find. I did start a thread about a month ago asking "what type of water do you use?" and "do you treat your water?" in any way. (such as adjusting pH or mineral content) Pretty much my answers were to use rain water only which is not a possibility for me. Let me know if you need help in any way! -Connie

[trybalpnoy]

Hi Connie... When you said japanese, were you talking about kangen water?!? Judging from your stint as an ICU nurse, I would very much like to know your opinion on kangen water found at www.kangen-water.ws I did some research on this forum and did come upon your threads pertaining to water types/usages before posting my tentative science experiment. Ooh, I just like it when great minds think alike!...atleast in pH affecting the microbes

Fabolusus, it would be great if i could get my hands on a 100 plants but i don't know if anyone or any nursery would let my inner dr frankenstein go amuck on their plants! and having a student budget doesn't help much either

[Bolero]

My pH is around 6.6 as it comes out of the tap.

And disolved minerals come at around 160ppm.

The disolved minerals used to be much lower until they started pumping ground water into water supply due to the drought.

Do those readings sound ok?

[PhalPal]

Dean - I looked at the site about Kangen water and it just amazes me what some people will sell - or buy! Alkaline water with hard minerals? Isn't that Southern California TAP water? I live near a very plastic surgery - anti aging - do anything for youth area (Newport Beach) and you would not believe what some will pay thousands of dollars for. Virtually just a promise in a bottle. For instance 'Strivectin' is a face cream that costs over $150 a tube - first ingredient listed is petroleum, ie Vaseline. No active ingredients what-so-ever, (active ingredients are those known to elicit change in cells) and the higher the price the more people think it will work. At the top of the Kangen Water website, first thing they say is "our water is anti-aging." This is your first clue that this is a scam. "Anti-oxidant" is another buzz word, altho healthy you can get them in much better form from a handful of blueberries. I have no idea how they add anti-oxidants to a water treatment system? BIG soapbox for me as you can tell; my last job as a nurse was for a very well-known plastic surgeon who was nothing more then a well educated snake oil salesman. I couldn't and wouldn't lie for her and ended up leaving on bad terms. Take what is advertised and do your own research before you buy!

The directions on my pH meter were originally written in Japanese and make no sense at all when translated into english. Hilariously funny tho! I think I can figure it out for myself.

I do have about 20 plants (mini-cyms and phals) A few of my phals are the same size and type, in their growth cycle and would be good for an experiment. Four weeks is a little short since orchids tend to grow so slow to begin with, but it is a good first measurement date. I was thinking of tracking a couple plants for a whole year - one complete cycle of growing roots, leaves and flowers. Is this a school project for you? Is just the set up, theory and planning the important part? Let me know where you are going with this and if you would like any help.

Bolero- your pH out of the tap is perfect! I would be thrilled with that; mine runs 7.6-8.1 per our city website. Your hardness looks like it might be okay; it depends if 160 is TOTAL dissolved solids or just ONE of the minerals (calcium, for instance). My calcium alone is 330, which is very high. Our water is very hard here because it runs through the Rocky Mts. to get to us, picking up all those minerals in the process. Keep in mind plants need minerals to utilize fertilizers and absorb water. I will probably mix some of my tap with distilled water to soften the water used on my plants for the pH experiment.

Anybody else have any opinions here? Ever dabbled in pH readings or total dissolved solids? Do you think Paris should be sent back to jail?

[jerrymeola]

PH is an interesting issue that in the final analysis may not mean much.

Think about the last decades issue of acid rain. It certainly hurt plants that were used to alkaline conditions.

When I lived in Northern US we could change the color of a rhododendron from red to blue by changing the PH. Since this was a high alkaline soil area so we pounded nails into the ground to rust. Slow release rust to go with slow release fertilizer..

One thing I am certain of, is that once a plant adapts to either alkaline of acid water a change will be a shock. All living things use membranes to regulate life by allowing certain things to pass through and others to be restricted. This is how our stomach works.

Changing the PH from acid to base or the reverse causes the flow of elements to reverse. In are bodies it can cause toxic shock and even kill. The same is likely with plants. So choose one and stay with it.

[PhalPal]

Jerry - Will worm tea do better (or at least okay) in a relatively neutral pH? My reason for wanting a more neutral water is because my water is alkaline because of the hard minerals it contains and they cause problems in and of themselves. When I refer to 'acidic' I am only talking about a pH of 6.8 - 7.4, (7.0 being neutral) not for the benefit of being acidic, but to obtain the goal of being neutral. When we add a fertilizer with phosporous we are adding an acid to the mix and changing the pH every time we fertilize, so we are only talking changes by tenths. I know it sounds knit-picky, but if we can get our orchids to utilize the additives to their best it may make a big difference. (?)

[BillC]

I offer, for what it is worth, to subscribers of this thread a post by Kevin on water:

I use tap water. Additives in the water will harm only the most sensitive plants (like Disas). I use chlorinated, flourinated tap water on all sorts of Paph and Phrag species and hybrids without the slightest problem. I use tap water because I have no means to collect rainwater. I used to buy bottled spring water for my Phrag besseaes but gave it up and gave them tap water, no problems. I didnt' even let the tap water sit to let the chlorine evaporate. I have watered like this for many (probably 10+) years.

No mention of Ph but if Kevin reads this thread he may like to comment.

Bill.

[PhalPal]

BillC - the situation is that I DO have problems; I don't like the very brown tips on my cymbidiums that are consuming the top third of my leaves. The problem is not caused by fertilizer, chlorine, sunburn, or media. (OTHER experiments) All I can think of is that I have VERY hard water where I live, and minerals in the water do affect pH. The question thrown out to Jerry (or Our Vital Earth) was how acidity would affect worm tea? It is a difficult question to ask on such a forum because we all come from vastly different parts of the world/country and grow a large variety of plants under varying conditions.

It is possible that Kevin's water in Australia has a favorable pH and that could be why he has not experienced any problem. I don't know, and pH may not make much difference at all. The only thing I am sure of is that pH influences ALL chemical reactions on earth, which can be for the better or for the worse.

Since I have not heard from our college student lately, (I think we scared him off!) I think I will just go ahead and do a very simple, two plant experiment. Can't hurt, and I just might learn something about my specific growing conditions. HA! I could discover the next great thing for orchids! Any input is welcome!

[matucana]

Hi PhalPhal,

pH is not everything. Another important factor is the electric conductivity which is closely related to overal salt concentration but easier to measure. Distilled water has a conductivity of ca. 2 µS/cm, rain water 20-60 µS/cm, tap water 150-800 µS/cm, the two latter depending on the area where you live (here I have 30 µS/cm for rain water and 250 µS/cm for tap water).

Orchids with thinner roots from moister environments, like Masdevallia, are said to tolerate only about 100 µS/cm over a longer time period before their roots "burn" and turn brown.

Phal hybrids tolerate higher levels, and Cymbidiums as well,a s they need a lot of fertilizer. (BTW, my Cym has brown leaf tips due to too low air humidity.)

In consequence, the phals at my office receive tap water and thrive. The natural species at home receive, whenever possible, rain water with fertilizer and a conductivity of 300 µS/cm. Sometimes only rainwater to wash off excess salts.

Back to pH, values between 5,5 and 8,5 are not very acidic or alkaline. Acetic acid has a pH of 3 and is considered a weak acid. And if you have your plants potted in bark, ions are buffered easily away at first. Another point to change the substrate regularly if you use tap water - the accumulation of salts.

But good luck with your experiment!

[PhalPal]

matucana - thanks for your excellent answer. Lack of humidity may indeed be the cause for my brown tips and it would be a very big deal to try to maintain a level above 50% since I grow them outside in dry conditions. I grow mini-cyms outdoors and phals indoors. I am sure you are aware they both have a sturdy root system.
Apparently you have tested your water and it's salt content; is this a figure you get from city resources or do you have a meter you use at home? I have thought about purchasing a TDS meter and using it in tandom with the pH meter, just for fun. I do drench my pots and media very well each time I water to help flush out some salts; I had hoped this was the problem with my tips but saw no improvement.
I know you are new to the forum and something we talk about a lot is worm tea. It serves as a fertilizer and beneficial microbe additive and we are discovering it has insecticidal and fungicidal properies as well. My main concern was if even slightly acidic water would kill the living microbes. A pH of 3 may be only minimally corrosive but destroy the microbes, which is the main reason I love the stuff. I love fiddling with my plants and I'm trying to restrain myself from adding more. The result of this is to find something new to do with the ones I have!
I'll let the forum know if I make some great discovery that turns the orchid world on it's end! Hey, the telephone and chocolate chip cookies were accidents...

[trybalpnoy]

I am still here! I should be studying for my finals but I can take a break. Connie, you're right about the 4 weeks time frame but I guess you can that's all i have the patience for! I been tryin to get my baby orchids to grow as fast as they can. Not a school project for me at all... one of my pursuits to act on my inquiries about things. Bringing out the botanist side of me you can call it. Eh, it's better than testing on animals woldn't you say... I think the most important part for me is actually seeing results, whether it be good or bad. Although it is my first orchid, it can also be my first guinea pig!

And shame on the sheriff who let Paris out for "medical reasons"

[matucana]

Hi PhalPhal,

yes I think a humidity below 50% is the reason for brown leaf tips.

As for the conductivity, I got the value from our local water provider's homepage. But I have a TDS meter too for the "fertilizer rain water". When I checked the tap water, the value provided was the same as measured, so it is ok.

It would be interesting to check toe worm tea's conductivity... I once checked our mineral water... more than the upper limit of my meter, 2000 µS/cm

[jerrymeola]

PhalPal

my water is extremely alkaline (7.8+). I never try to adjust it as it is over 2000 ppm in hardness. (liquid rock)

It never seems to cause a problem directly or with the Worm Tea.

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

I used Phosphoric acid for years fed thru a syfonex to lower the ph of my Colorado river water, ~500ppm. I poured in enough acid to the bucket to make the water coming out my hose about 6-6.5ph. This pretty well kept all my plants looking very clean with no deposits anywhere.

Tap water with lots of minerals has a strong buffering action and will leave the mix pretty much at the ph of the water. Pure (distilled/RO/rain) water has no buffering action and will have no effect on the PH of the wetted mix. I use a little tap water added to my RO when I use many fertilizers to prevent large swings of ph because most fertilizer manufactures expect hard water and make their product acidic to compensate, way too acidic for pure water. If you want to know what the native ph of your mix is, pour a small amount of pure water thru you pot and capture and test the first cubic inch that comes out the bottom of the pot. My peat based mix has been down to around 3.5 ph, and I am now adding oyster shell to the mix to prevent this super low ph.

[Hummer344]

I am with the guy in the airplane. LOL Bill C. I use tap water, haven't had a problem and the water here is very hard. The only concession I make to the plants is during the winter I do take the chill out of the tap water so as not to shock the plants. All my non-blooming plants are outside now and I just hose them down once a week. Survive or die type attitude. I hate being to fussy with plants. Of course I have lost a few orchids along the way but I learned to buy orchids that have more of a survivel gene.