Newbie with Phals... Crown Rot!!

[MarthaA562]

Well, I think it is crown rot....
I recently picked up about 5 phalaenopsis, and of course immediately bought 3 orchid books, did about 3 hours of research, in all intent of not killing them and actually having beautiful orchids that I could keep for a long time.... Well, after about 4 days, I noticed that one started wilting, the flowers and the blooms. Knowing that I am not supposed to repot during the bloom, but curious because I had troubleshooted using my resources, I took it out, and found that it had root rot so terrible that all I could salvage was the crown, leaves, and then the stem with the blooms fell off!! I knew that one was toast.
Well, since I bought the others from the same place, I inspected the others... and the three others had not only root rot, but one (my largest one) looked like it had healthy roots, but found that it had crown rot.
I repotted them with a orchid bark mix, a little styrophoam at the bottom, and a little spag moss. I am aware of proper drainage and all of that stuff. My question is... if they have crown rot, are they still salvageable? My large one still has some roots, and I tried to scrap with a sterilized knife, most of the rot off of the crown... But one of them has one tiny little root. The leaves on all of them look great and the blooms are still looking great (for now).

What do I do now??? Are they salvageable??
Please help.... they are so beautiful!!

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

Just have to wait and see. Sometimes with crown rot you will get a keiki down where a new spike would come out, and this would take over the root system and become the replacement plant, if the crown rot leaves a little good material at the base. It is possible to have good roots and no base left = dead plant. If you have leaves and crown, but no roots, you need to Sphag and Bag. Forget the pot in this case, and plavce what is left of the plant into a zip lock bag with a little mostly wrung out moss, and zip up. Then keep in moderately low light and wait for roots to grow, maybe months.

[mayres]

Hello Martha -
First of all, in my opinion you did the right thing to initially inspect the roots - hopefully you removed all mushy, black, paper-thin, etc. and otherwise bad roots and are left with just plump tan/green/gray ones - however few? Any plant that did have crown rot, where the crown is now missing, will take a long long time to potentially bring back from "the grave". If it still has a spike, you might cut it back to just above the first node and hope for a keiki to form - in which case you could start a clone of the original one it gets sufficient roots to remove. The second option is to hope that the mother plant sends up a basal keiki, that could potentially take over the original root system as the original plant dies off. Either way you are talking probably about two years until you have a plant that is once again healthy and capable of blooming. If the original plant is an inexpensive no-id plant you might want to just discard and get another. If you are very patient and just want to see how things go - then by all means have a go and see what happens - but it will be a long long drawn out affair. Normally if you have a plant that is fighting for survival and has a bloom spike I would recommend cutting the spike off - if it is blooming you can put it in water and enjoy for a spell. That way the plant will concentrate on trying to build up its strength through roots and leaves instead of through seed/bloom. About a year and a half ago I had a small crownless plant with only one leaf. It sent up a spike with two flowers on it and I enjoyed them for three months. After cutting it off the one leafer send up another flower spike immediately. I cut it off to see if the plant would put its energy into survival another way? Sure enough, it sent up a basal keiki and then the original leaf immediately died. I now have a healthy young phal that is probably a year away from being large enough to bloom.

[MarthaA562]

Thank you so much for your help!! Sorry I have so many questions, but the books I have do not answer back or solve all of my questions. This forum is wonderful!!

Is yellow roots coming out of the crown normal? I have some beautiful green roots, and then some yellow stems that do come from the rotten core... my neighbor (she is a gardner, some experience with orchids, but not much) has said that any yellow is just a sign of immature roots... but they look kind of iffy.. They feel firm, but if they have any black at the base of in the middle of the root, should I cut that part out or are they bad altogether?

If I was to use the spag and bag method.... would I first need to cut the spike, as it is still in bloom??? Also, where do I cut it, I have heard conflicting things: above the first node or the third node?

Also, I have a lot of confusion about the spag and bag method. i have a bathroom with one small frosted window... no bathtub, and no counter space. How big of a bag will I need? I have read that the leaves should not touch the bag, so a large ziploc? Also, do I add sugar and something else (forget the name of it...)? Will the lack of light hurt it? Also, does it need holes in the bag?

Or, do you think that the keiki idea would work as well? I am not really sure what the difference is between that and a root... I have heard them being described... but have never seen a pic. Do you think that if I tried that method that I should leave it in the pot?
I only paid $10 for the smaller ones and $20 for the large on (Walmart.... no wonder they are dying- but I figured for a first-timer... I mine as well kill a $10 orchid than a $50+ orchid. This is my practice run.. I love them so much that I want to get it right before spending the big bucks!!).

I am willing to try both methods on either one. If this is a hobby that I intend on being committed to, I want to learn everything possible, so that I can one day have the orchid "garden" indoors that I dream of.... One day...

So, this is all a learning experience for me. I also have a dendrodium that is just a stalk, but has 2 small growths already from the base (Are those called spikes?). Should I water those, and how do I get them to bloom?? I can post pics and will probably do another post so I make sure I get this one right... I know that the roots are perfect So, only I can mess it up, not the person at Walmart who gets stuck in the gardening section without a clue as to what they are doing!! (No offense to Walmart nursery workers... just the one where I bought them from)

[amaliaforce]

Martha,
From what I know of phals, you only cut aobve the third node when you're looking for the plant to rebloom in a hurry (and I've heard various opinions about what kind of longterm strain this can put on a plant). I would cut either above the first or as far back as you can cut. The spike has got to come off if the plant is sick, because plants put tons of energy into flowering - energy that may otherwise save the plant.

As far as the spag and bag, I believe that you put the plant in a ziploc or something of that sort with just some damp spag, nothing else. Seal the bag completely (no holes) and let the plant sit somewhere a little cooler than ususal so it doesn't overheat. There are varying ideas on when to give it fresh air - most people say about once a week.

A keiki isn't really a method you can employ... the plant will either grow one or it won't. I'm sure there are things you can do to encourage it - but I don't know them. A keiki is simply another orchid plant, which grows on top of the original. It has its own roots and crown and everything.

Hopefully I've helped a little. Good luck!

[mayres]

HI again Martha -
It might be easier to deal with one (or two) plants per thread, but I'll give some more of your questions a shot here. A good pic of what you are talking about also helps if you have a digital camera. Roots coming out of the crown would be extremely abnormal. Are you sure you don't mean just roots coming out between leaves? Again, a pic would help. Air roots typically have a greyish appearance that turns greenish when spritzed with water and a tip which is green or even reddish green if the orchid is pink/lavender. Roots that are in media often have a yellow/tan cast to them which is OK if plumb and firm. When older flower spikes die back they can turn a yellow/brown at which case you would want to remove these as close to the base of the plant as you can safely do.
The challenge with sphag and bag is that if you have a plant that already does indeed have core rot, you might encourage the plant to further disintegrate with inadequate air movement in a enclosed or semi-enclosed environment. Getting the humidity up with good air movement is the challenge. Yes, if the plant is suffering cut the spike and put it in a vase and enjoy it for a short time as a cut flower. As noted earlier, if the crown is truly gone you might want to cut just above the first node and hope for a keiki, which may or may not happen. I'm curious though, when you say the "crown", are you talking about the very center of the plant where there might have been a small leaf growing - that now has disintegrated leaving a "hole" in the center of the plant? This is what happens with crown rot. In extreme cases all the peripheral leaves will also fall off leaving you with only roots.
You have learned a good lesson about buying plants at places like Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, etc. If you can purchase them the day or shortly thereafter that they arrive you are usually OK, but otherwise they are commonly BADLY abused by department employees who know nothing about orchids and water them every day or nearly so - and you end up buying a plant with most of the roots rotted away - sadly many people then jump to the incorrect conclusion of not being able to grow orchids - and the fault was not theirs at all - they were headed downhill before they ever got them. Update your profile so we can see where you live - someone who lives near you might direct you to some good places to purchase healthy plants - they can often be had for not much more than you paid for them at Walmart. Most orchid shows are selling VERY healthy plants in the 20-30 dollar range. Certainly don't give up and don't use this experience to judge whether or not you can/should be growing orchids!
Your dendrobium is putting up new canes which are this type of plant's psedobulbs - it stores water and nutrition in those canes. It is going to want lots and lots of light this spring through summer to bloom - a lot different lighting condition than your phals. It depends upon the media and where you live, but I water mine approximately once a week (also depends upon what type of dend you have).
Again - if you are getting frustrated that you are not making enough headway in dealing with your plants - you might want to post a picture and ask questions about one at a time - just a thought.
Otherwise - good luck and enjoy your orchids.....mike

[MarthaA562]

Thanks for the feedback! I definitely will take some pics and try to deal with one at a time... I think I took on too many at a time for a newbie! But this is a learning lesson, and once I troubleshoot some of the problems with these that I have, I will know what to look for, and the anatomy of each type of orchid that I own.
This forum is so awesome!! I have been on other forums for various things (like weddings, and such), and I have never had such a great response and people that are so willing to help with things that are "amateur" to the experts!! Kudos to all of you!!

Originally Posted by mayres

HI again Martha -
It might be easier to deal with one (or two) plants per thread, but I'll give some more of your questions a shot here. A good pic of what you are talking about also helps if you have a digital camera. Certainly don't give up and don't use this experience to judge whether or not you can/should be growing orchids!
Again - if you are getting frustrated that you are not making enough headway in dealing with your plants - you might want to post a picture and ask questions about one at a time - just a thought.
Otherwise - good luck and enjoy your orchids.....mike

[Cynthia, Prescott, AZ]

A clearification. Sphag and Bag is for plants with no roots. A plant with roots but crown rot should be potted up and treated like normal, and hope for a side growth (keiki). Dens should not be S & B'd. Only potted up and waited for.