Sickly Den. Needs Help

[Purest_heart]

My grandmother gave me this Den. late last year, while it was in bloom. I do not know the full name, but the blooms were a solid dark violet. I recently went on vacation for a week, and hence my house/dog sitter thought it would be good for the plant to be outside. And didnt we just happend to get some soggy rain in this part of Texas?! So now my Den. is looking very sad. The leaves turned a yellow-green, tips have started to turn brown, and it is still very moist. I am by no means an expert. I was only watering it very sparsely before so I have no clue about the diseases or possible complications that can go along with my baby.

At the top of the plant it has very green roots, but all others are a grey/white. Would it be a problem to cut back most of the grey/white roots and just leave the green ones to grow out? It is in a bark medium right now, but since looking around on the site this afternoon I am thinking of making a trip to Lowe's tomorrow

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[orchidaddict789]

Hello! Welcome to the forum!

Healthy roots can be any color--they can be green, white, gray, or even brown. However, gray or brown roots are more likely to be dead. To confirm, give the root a gentle squeeze. If it feels hollow, soft, or squishy, then it's dead. You can cut off the dead roots if you're sure.

Pictures can help when it comes to id'ing leaf symptoms. Brown leaves could be due to a fungal/bacterial rot, though it's also possible for dens to shed old leaves periodically.

Also, check the bark. If it feels crumbly and soft, then you really need to repot the plant, because old, stale mix is detrimental to the roots.

Good luck!

[Purest_heart]

hollow as in dead; soft and squisky as in decayed?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some pictures of it that I just took now. I will have to soak it to be able to get all of the older bark that was left in. Im starting to think that the white spots on the leaves may just be from being out in the sun :/

Roots Roots Roots!




I looked up some terms for orchids, and I think these are called backbulbs. When I took it out of its pot and repotted it they fell off of the mother plant, but still are connected to the roots system. I'm leaving them alone for now. If I want to later on down the road could I take them away from the mother plant and grow them on their own separately?

[Olive Cook]

Den roots can be deceptive, to me at least... In my experience as long as the white roots are in fact firm, and/or turn green when watered they are fine. I've killed several in the past by too much cutting .... and the do love to be root bound

[11Orchid126]

If you are certain that the canes have indeed fallen away from the mother plant's rhyzome, and are just connected by entangled roots, you can carefully separate them and pot them up by themselves. At least three canes minimum would make a good division, five canes would be much better.

[kmarch]

I would definitely not divide this plant or remove back canes in its weakened condition. This plant looks like it needs all the help it can get and removing its energy stores won't accomplish that.

This den looks like either a phal type, an aussie native type (a kingianum hybrid of some kind) or perhaps a cross between the two. It bears some Den biggibum characteristics. If you have not already done so, go to the orchid care section of this forum or to AOS | Members Only Area and get yourself a good culture sheet on phal type dendrobiums. Read it and let us know if you have any questions about their culture.

Remove all of the dead roots (even if that means you don't have many left) and pot it up in a good bark mix. Tale Olives tip that healthy roots are firm and crisp while dead roots are mushy. Dead roots will usually pull right away if pulled on gently. When potting, select the smallest possible pot that can accomodate the roots. Give it the culture/conditions indicated on the culture sheet.

[davetheorchidaddict]

Dendrobiums have a strong will to live, I never throw one away until the canes are dry and brown. You may want to cut off dead roots but I always leave them alone until new ones make their appearance. Hang in with it and you may be pleasently surprised. This another case that teaches us patience as we grow our little chids.

[Purest_heart]

Within one day the color of the leaves has changed They've gone a more yellow-green now. Hopefully it's just from sunbleaching rather than crown rot or some other kind of fungal infection. Fingers crossed.

[Sandrilene]

I wouldn`t cut it but i would try this on it just to be safe.
10 drops dishsoap
1.8 ml cinnamon extract (about 1/2 tsp.)
2 cups tepid water
It is a fellow geeks recipe I can not remember their name at the moment I am drawing a blank. But they are awesome and so is it.

[Purest_heart]

It doesnt look that good. The leaves are almost completely yellow now and have darker green spots on them. I put it outside in an area that only gets a bit of afternoon sun later on in the day. It is actually quite nice out today, mid 70's and sunny. Still hoping for the best :S

[rcb]

As long as the canes remain firm and at least a little bit green, it has an excellent chance to survive. As Dave said, Dens have an amazing ability to continue on.

Follow the advice kmarch gave you, and wait patiently. I know its hard.

If something like this had to happen, this is the best time of the year. With spring coming for you, it will trigger it to put out new canes, which will grow new leaves and new roots.

BTW - it does look like a bad case of sunburn, not bugs or fungus.

[Purest_heart]

Ill make sure that the house sitter doesnt touch any of my plants next time! lol

Thank you all for making me feel better about my puny little plant.

[Purest_heart]

update: new medium new pot. ever so hopeful. Trying not to touch it as much as possible now. The mix I got is from my grandmother, this plant is a spike off of her adult plant. It says it is a 35-45% raw fur and pine bark with charchol. I also got some lava rocks as I hear they are good as far as drainage. When I was getting the mother plant situated, the two little spikes came loose on their own, but both have good roots. I've put them together in a small tuperware container that I never use, and put a few lava rocks and holes on the bottom. On the mother plant, one of the leaves fell off and Im sure a few are not far from that same thing. I wish the leaves would just go ahead and fall off, they are the reason why i am so worried! Im so ebarassed to show you these horrible pictures!



This one is about to fall off

[Sandrilene]

Looks sunburnt to me. no reason to be embarrassed you didn`t do anything to it you just want to help your plant I totally understand that! I would go back to offering it the same TLC you were giving it before she put it outside and give it a chance to recuperate. It looks like it was really healthy before it happened so it should slowly get better. Leaves are probably done for though. Unless the roots are squishy or black i`d leave em

[Purest_heart]

Yeah all of the leaves fell off shortly after I took these pictures lol

[willowbanks]

Hello P H, I notice you said it now gets a little afternoon sun where you have put it, is there any chance you could move it to a position where it could get filtered morning sun for at least 4 hours???

Bill

[Sandrilene]

Listen to Bill he has mad skills. Should look at his dens they are amazing.

[dounoharm]

hopefully it will put out new canes soon, just keep it dry and let mother nature cure it...water it when it is stone dry....dens like to dry out....very well drained medium too....

[Purest_heart]

Just to let everyone know that I think my orch is out of the woods! Although it has no leaves, the stalks are fairly green now I put it near my kitchen window/sink area which is west facing, and usually leave enough room with the blinds pulled up everyday for it to get filtered light. I have a water spray bottle now and just spray alittle bit of water on it every day. I have some new developments! It has some new growths coming out even though I have no clue as to what they might be! It's a franken-orchid!!

They are coming out around the middle of the main stock.

[Phalcycle]

Those are keiki I beleive.
Your plant isn't doomed yet! It is regrowin

[ocrcDirChina]

Growing care problem now your plant is in survival mode just correct the growing conditions and care it should come back to health.

[willowbanks]

Yep you've got keikies.

Be calm, don't over celebrate yet, you still have a long way to go before these new growths are ready to come off and be potted (one to two years)

Have you still got the mother plant potted????

Bill

[Purest_heart]

The mother plant is still potted.

[willowbanks]

Is there any sign of new roots or is it still looking pretty crook around the pot area????

Bill

[Purest_heart]

Crook? I will have to check for new root growth when I get off of work. I cut back some squishy roots but not a lot because I didn't want to cut too much and kill it.

[Anisa]

Wow, that is amazing how it is coming back. It looked dead to me. (I am no dend. specialist at all, so don't listen me It shows me how plants even in worst shape don't really want to die and given a chance will try to survive.

[Purest_heart]

I don't know about new growth ; The roots look okay lol When I water the plant they turn a healthy brown color. I say this becuase my plant has alot of roots, and I didnt want to cut too much back when it was almost dead and kill it lol.

[willowbanks]

OH DEAR ME!!!!

Purest_heart, the roots on hard cane Dendrobiums should not be brown, they should be a clean white/cream colour.

The reason your Den. is producing keikies is a self preservation mechanism, the plant is telling you there is a problem down at the root area.

Please wet some of those nice brown roots, grab one and squeeze it between finger and thumb, if there is no resistance, the root is dead.

PART TWO
I've just gone back up to your first photo of the root ball and can tell just by looking that most, if not all of the roots are dead.

Have you got another another orchid to compare the root test with???

Bill

[Purest_heart]

I have no other orchid. This is my first one, the one I am learning off of so to speak.

Just to clarify, the roots ARE a white creamy color, only as I water them the color changes. I did a hunt a little while ago and found a couple of green-ish looking roots.

[willowbanks]

Ok, got that.

The pot you have it in looks too large and the mix looks too small and water retentive.

I think the best thing would be to pull the plant from the pot/media, tie it to a piece of wood, mist it with water only and see what happens. (that goes for the small piece that has broken away as well)

Don't worry, there is no problem doing this, the plant does not need the pot or media, they are things we do to suite us when we keep these plants.

After about 4 to 6 weeks, if there is any life left in the base of your plant you should see some new roots or even a new growth happening, if not, concentrate on the keikies.

Bill

[Purest_heart]

Would it be better if the wood was treated or bought from a pet store? I don't want to just go pick up some wood out of my yard, and have little bugs get in my house or on my plant. And to tie it down, just with some string/twine or something?

[willowbanks]

Never use treated wood, ok.

Your not mounting the plant, tying to a piece of wood is different, a tempory thing to let the plant dry out and breathe.

Any piece of wood (except treated) will do, a clean piece from your garden will do the job or even an old broom handle (cut to size), the wood is only to stabilize the plant till it decides what it is going to do.

I'll try and post some photos tomorrow to show you what I mean by just tying it up.

Bill

[willowbanks]

Here's some photos of what I'm asking you to do,

003.jpg

004.jpg

007.jpg

Not the one on the left, it's a different type of Den. mounted.
009.jpg

This is good, it was an old clump I placed on the shelf with Spanish Moss to hold it in place, it has bucket loads of new leads.
014.jpg

Mine, I tie straight to the mesh in the shade house, yours, I suggested a piece of wood because I thought it would be more convenient for you.

Bill

[orchids4me]

Hi purest heart,
How is the Den doing now? Saw last post from bill was in may.
I have learned much from this post and am curious as to how its doing.
Thank you
Emmaye

[Purest_heart]

It is still hanging in there despite everything that its been through. I'm still hopeful. There are a total of 5 keikies now, but no new root growth since putting it on an old broom handle as suggested. We shall see :S

[Shannara]

Try misting those keikis with some root stimulator! That might give them a boost.

Shann~

[Purest_heart]

The keikies are taking over really, I have two that their roots are quite huge...probably over 1.5 inches

[zaeem]

purest heart,
you are observing the roots of keikis which your plant is shooting.Are there several leaves on them? the mother is feeding them,and need some growth hormone and add some fert to the mother and kiekis.
Let them grow.

Six leaves each and roots then you may consider potting them.

[willowbanks]

Originally Posted by Purest_heart
but no new root growth since putting it on an old broom handle as suggested.

It's only been about 3 weeks, it takes time.

Are there any viable eyes at the base of the front cane???

Bill

[Purest_heart]

Eyes...I'm getting lost.

[sunshine]

Originally Posted by Purest_heart

Eyes...I'm getting lost.

It's only been about 3 weeks, it takes time.

Are there any viable eyes at the base of the front cane???

willowbanks is taking about new growth and yes it does take awhile

[willowbanks]

This is what is meant by "viable eyes ", it's where your next growth comes from.

I've cleaned the sheath away so you get a good look.

2031.jpg2032.jpg2034.jpg

This photo shows an eye on the front cane and a second eye on the rear cane, if the front eye is damaged or lost the second eye will shoot and grow into a new cane.
2038.jpg

Bill

[sunshine]

Originally Posted by willowbanks

This is what is meant by "viable eyes ", it's where your next growth comes from.

I've cleaned the sheath away so you get a good look.

Attachment 36739Attachment 36740Attachment 36741

This photo shows an eye on the front cane and a second eye on the rear cane, if the front eye is damaged or lost the second eye will shoot and grow into a new cane.
Attachment 36742

Bill

Bill, thanks for the pics and great looking roots I have noticed my dens putting out a lot of these little eyes and boy are some of them slow growing.

[Purest_heart]

Nope, no eyes. Just more keikeis. Had to bring it inside for a bit. Here's some recent pics.





I looked around a bit after watering, and it doesnt look like there is any new growth from the mother. Used some root spray on them and they seem okay and happy. Just hangin' in there!

[amchu3]

Wow, those keikis are really taking off! Now you have FOUR plants instead of one xD. Are you going to remove them soon and repot them on their own?

[Purest_heart]

Well, as someone suggested above to wait till they had 6 leaves / 6 roots, I'm going to wait and see what else they are going to do before I take that next step. There are a total of 6 keikeis with roots, and I can see more sprouts, probably more keikeis, popping up. Hopefully, even if I do lose the mother, I can get some surviving babies out of her.

[willowbanks]

Purest_heart, you have done well.

You still have some growing to do yet before removing any of the keikies, the mother canes are feeding the babies, be patient, let nature work for you.

The "6 leaves / 6 roots" advice is not good, there is no set amount to have for these plants and taking that approach is a recipe for disaster.

Now is the time to consider what media you are going to pot your keikies in.

Bill

[Purest_heart]

Any suggestions? They've been sitting at a west facing window recently. I live in Houston, Texas, so it is a bit humid. I don't know if this matters or not.

[willowbanks]

Purest_heart, I would suggest bark and styro foam but I've noticed what I call bark is not the same as what Geeks are using in the USA.

I'll take some photos tomorrow to show you what I (we) use over here in Australia.

Bill

[willowbanks]

This is good bark, solid chunks, no flaky pieces that stay wet for too long.

2110.jpg

The foam is packaging material and comes in cubes (left of photo), I break it up to about the same size as the bark, mix foam and bark together as a blend then pot. A good mix to start with is 1/3 foam 2/3 bark.

The foam is for your airation and drainage, never use the foam as whole cubes in the base of the pot.

Bill

[tansyflower]

Why don't you use big chunks of foam in the bottom of the pot?

[willowbanks]

Tansy, because the moisture stays in the bark above them and stays wet for ages.

Putting foam at the base of your pot is a quick potting method used by nurseries for quick sales plants, not for the good orchid grower that keep their plants for years in the same mix before having to re-pot.

Bill

[capemaycowboy]

I too am having trouble with my dendrobiums. I only have two but I seem to have managed to kill them both. One is identified as a dendrobium hybrid and was given to me by a friend. The other one is D. Bjrana Green Jay No.3 and was purchased at a local orchid show. I was ready to give up and toss them when all of a sudden I noticed these green prouts on them. After reading your post and seeing all the great comments - I'm wondering if these are Keikeis? And, I guess, what should I do in the future that might save these plants? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!