Phragmipedium Cardinale

[riyokotsu]

I recently purchased a Phragmipedium Cardinale 'Birchwood' (according to the tag) from a fundraiser for the Orchid Society of Minnesota. I only own Phals, and I have always wanted a slipper orchid (the MN state flower is one, after all) so the opportunity seemed too good to pass up. It's not in bloom right now, but there seem to be remnants of a flower spikes. I would take pictures to help illustrate it, but my camera and the lighting in here is pretty crappy.

Right now, I have it on the same humidity tray as my Phals. Having just read some real information on them literally five minutes ago, I moved it to the sunniest part of the tray and I plan on watering it momentarily. When I bought it from the grower, all the tips of the long leaves are brown. It's planted in what appears to be a mostly moss mixture. What should I do to take care of it?

On a side note, is it okay to keep my orchids at a constant temperature instead of lowering it at night? They are in the same room as me in my apartment and I don't control the thermostat. I keep the temperature around 72F with the help of a small space heater and the humidity gauge on my tray is reading at 73% right now.

[mayres]

After noting the posts below this one on the thread..........

What do I know - I had "paph" so ingrained in my mind that I couldn't see the forest through the trees....."phrag".... Hmmmm..

Post about "paphs" deleted since this doesn't apply.........dummy me.........you think it is age related?????

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by riyokotsu

What should I do to take care of it?

Start by getting a good phrag culture sheet like the one found at AOS | Members Only Area. Give it a read and let us know if you have questions. I love Phrags though my phrags here in Australia are not doing well. Not really sure what the problem is.

[Brooke]

Congratulations this is one of my favorites. Phrags will grow and flower best in catt light. Growing in front of a sunny window will lift the temps beyond your thermostat temperatures. Most phrags can take lower temps than a phal. It is also one of the smaller more compact phrags and not a big honker

The brown tips are salt build up from fertilizer or water with a high salt content. They prefer pure water - either rain or distilled. The pots should be flushed weekly and a weak fertilizer a couple of times a month. Cardinale prefers to sit in a shallow saucer of water at all times or watered enough to be kept very very moist. You can't undo the brown tips but you can eliminate them in the future.

Some phrags love s/h and some don't. I prefer either a small bark seedling mix or the CHC mix with charcoal and perlite. With the seedling bark mix I also use cut up sphag for added moisture. They LOVE to be repotted yearly. They bloom whenever a growth is mature and bloom for a long time.



Enjoy her, she's a beaut!

Brooke

[riyokotsu]

Okay, so I took some pictures now that it's daytime here.

1.) The worst brown tip of any of the leaves.
2.) A tear down the center of a leaf
3.) Just a sickly looking leaf. It's kinda yellowish, if you can't tell.
4.) A new sprout of some kind. Hopefully a flower spike?
5.) The overall plant, so you get an idea of what it looks like.

Does this look typical of the salt build up that you mentioned, Brooke? I really appreciate your help, by the way.

[Brooke]

1.) Yes that is salt build up. If it bothers you, you can cut it off.
2.) Superficial damage, not a problem.
3.) If it is the bottom most leaf on the plant, it is getting ready to die. Phrag leaves get very ugly before they depart this world.
4.) The picture isn't focused enough for me to distinguish between new leaf or spike. If it is a leaf, it will separate when it is about 1/2" long. If it is a spike, there will be no split in it.
5.) The plant looks good but it will appreciate more light. The leaves should be more compact and not so floppy. Phrags will bloom in lower light but to get the maximum blooms and good spike branching from them, they need light. Good phrag leaves are a medium green when grown in appropriate light. Notice in my picture the color and the firmness of the leaf. Your phrag has the potential to be in bloom for months.

Have fun with your new plant!

Brooke

[riyokotsu]

My leaves are still rather floppy, but hopefully it will get better with time. I keep it sitting in a shallow saucer with water replenished daily.

However, I'm pretty sure that that new little growth is a flower spike. Or at least I really hope it is. It probably won't be as exquisite as Brooke's , but I'm super excited, regardless! I was impressed at how quickly it grew, too. From that little 1/2" leaf to this 3.75" growth in 21 days? Spectacular!

[kmarch]

Congratulations!!! You definitely have a flower spike! Autumn is the time in the States when Phrags start to spike. I can't wait to see the flowers. They should be good ones!

[Brooke]

Congrats on the spike! Compare your original pictures with your last picture - you have already got the leaves more upright. Good growing.

Brooke

[riyokotsu]

Just noticed this starting a few days ago, and I just got back from my Thanksgiving break and it spread from the first leaf to the tips of two more. I feel like this is different from just the salt in the water. I don't have a TDS meter so I don't know exactly what my levels are at, but these brown spots are softer, and the one started in the middle of the leaf, not the tips. Should I be concerned?

The plant sits about 6-8" from a West facing window. The temperature in here is about 73 F, with a humidity around 50-60%. It sits in a small saucer of water that I fill up every day. Planted in moss that is kept constantly moist.

Any ideas?

[kmarch]

No, it's not a fungus. It looks like leaf-tip die-back form salt build-up or the mix drying out. Have you been fertilizing it heavily? Or has the mix been allowed to dry out?

[riyokotsu]

Oh, well I'm glad it's not a fungus. I've fertilized it once since I've bought it, but I don't intend to really ever do it much, if at all, with this plant. The mix has never been dry, as far as I can tell. It must be salt then. I use water from a Brita pitcher, but I'm pretty sure those don't do anything to reduce salt levels. Is there any way to get pure water from a filtration system? I don't have a way to collect rain water, and buying bottled water may be a bit too expensive for me.

It doesn't matter that on the one leaf the browning occurred in the middle, not the tip?

[oncidiumlover]

I'm afraid I can't offer any help on the leaf burning for you, I buy ditilled water at the supermarket for about 80 cents a gallon and use it for all of my chids, the water here has some kind of chlorine that you can't get rid of, kills fish and the like, so I can't use it on the chids. They're worth it though.
I am very jealous of your purchase though!!! That is one knock out plant!!! I saw one of those at the conservatory, but it wasn't labeled. This is at the top of my wishlist!!

[Brooke]

I have a phrag given to me by a friend and it did the same type of browning in the middle of the leaf as your picture. The tip of the leaf problem is salt build up and the middle of the leaf problem probably is too. If a growth has had that problem, you can't eliminate it in that growth but the new growths will be fine.

My plant is a bessae primary hybrid and for some reason bessae offspring and I don't always see eye to eye. I have to experiment with them to find how they want to be grown. I trimmed the middle of the leaf damage off and it has not returned, yet.

Billie Jo it is chloramine added to the water that kills fish. Chlorine will dissipate over time but the chloramine never will. It does not hurt plants and has nothing to do with TDS in a water supply.

Brooke

[riyokotsu]

I've been really bummed for the last couple of weeks, and I've been putting off this post. A few weeks ago, the tips of the spike started to turn brown. I thought that perhaps it was due to salt buildup once again, so I thought nothing of it. Then, the growth of the spike was completely stunted. Once the stem started to turn brown, I knew it was gone. Any explanations as to why this happened?

I've been watering with distilled water I bought from the grocery store. A short time after the spike came in, a new leaf started to sprout as well (also with brown tips now ) There is also a new basal growth coming in. Can anyone help me out? I don't understand. Perhaps the media is too contaminated and a re-pot is in order. If so, any suggestions? I've been intrigued by s/h and I've read that phrags take well to it, but I'm a bit apprehensive.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated! I can post photos later too, if necessary.

[hera]

Billie Jo it is chloramine added to the water that kills fish. Chlorine will dissipate over time but the chloramine never will. It does not hurt plants and has nothing to do with TDS in a water supply.

Brooke[/QUOTE]

Brooke, are you sure that chloramine dosen't hurt the plants? I keep reading and have been told that it does. I'm partucularly interested because I've been contemplating getting a filter system or an RO system. I'd prefer not to spend that much money if I don't have to. Lately I've been melting snow.

[Brooke]

Melissa I wish I could help you but I'm out of ideas. I reread the thread and I would definitely repot it if it is in pure sphag - constant moisture and it can sour within a year or so. My Cardinale did great in s/h.

I'm still having some browning issues with my bessae primary and it has been repotted, only gets rain water and minor fertilizing. Sometimes they are just problem 'chids.
I hope you can figure it out soon, it is a great orchid.

Marie I've never heard of chloramine hurting plants since I always used it to water my orchids until I could store large amounts of rain water. Maybe Mr. Ray can weigh in here about an RO system removing chloramine from water because I don't really know. I have an RO system to supplement my water when I don't get adequate rain - or like now when it falls in the form of snow.

Brooke

[hera]

Another question for you Brooke. What kind of water do you use on your masdevallias?

[Lagoon]

Hi All,
I just wanted to chime in here ... chloramine is a combination of Chlorine & ammonia. You can use a product like *prime* to destroy the chloramines.

[Brooke]

Marie I use rain water for everything now. Before the g/h I used my city water for everything but the phrags. I hauled in distilled for them.

Brooke

[hera]

Originally Posted by Brooke

Marie I use rain water for everything now. Before the g/h I used my city water for everything but the phrags. I hauled in distilled for them.

Brooke

Now I'm just going to be pesty Brooke. What kind of fertilizer do you use?

[Brooke]

Marie I don't mind pesky it is MSU for pure water.

Brooke

[riyokotsu]

Okay, so I've finally gotten around to asking about this. I mentioned before that I knew the plant was healthy because it has a new growth. The bottom of this growth is tinted a dark purpley-red color. Is this normal? It seems healthy, as it continues to grow, I just don't know if it's normal.

Sorry the pictures are a little blurry, but I think you can still make out the growth.

[riyokotsu]

Oh, and another thing. I just ordered some s/h supplies for the plant, and it should be here on Friday. Could you give me any tips on repotting the sucker?

[katrina]

Melissa -- that coloration is very normal. Nothing to worry about.

I've never put a phrag in s/h but I'm sure someone else w/more experience will be along shortly.

[Irene]

I've got one in water and LECA. No holes in the container so not SH really.

It's doing well and is putting out it's 3rd bloom since I transferred it. It has several growths, that were already there, that are slowly growing.


Phrag1.jpg

[LouisW]

I have one phrag and it just so happens to be in S/H and it is doing great!

Fairly normal S/H potting. Definitly read jays thread about s/h or check out Rays website firstrays.com for expert instruction on the method.

The only difference is that I have problems keeping things moist in my dry climate so i put a thin layer of sphag at the top to hold a little extra moisture in and it works like a dream. Always nice and moist in the root zone just like they like. It has put on a new growth which is about twice as large as the last blooming growth and it is still going! I hope to have blooms this spring. The plant seems strong so I hope to have good size flowers (on Phrag Grande that means HUGE flowers)

Although your Phrag is a not a caudatum type like mine I think it would thrive in S/H just as mine has if you do your homework first.

[riyokotsu]

Originally Posted by LouisW

Although your Phrag is a not a caudatum type like mine I think it would thrive in S/H just as mine has if you do your homework first.

It's funny that you should mention that because I just got a Phrag. caudatum a few days ago. I figured I would put that into s/h too. I've read different places that phrags in general take well to s/h.

[Brooke]

NO NO NO on the caudatum in s/h - been there, done that - this species hates wet feet. It has taken almost two years for me to bring it back from the brink of death. It finally has two young growths.

Grow the caudatum in the same mix as a paph and keep it moist but never sitting in water.

It is super easy moving to s/h - repotting is just like repotting into a bark mix. Unlike the "tight" shoe concept for orchids, you can over pot some with this method.

I "think" my Cardinale was in s/h at one time and was fine. I do grow it in a saucer of water.

Brooke

[Brooke]

I need to make a correction to the above post. I DO NOT have the species caudatum and have no experience with it.

The species that does hate wet feet is Phrag. warszewiczianum, which used to be wallisii. I didn't have enough coffee for the brain cell to function properly.

Sorry

Brooke

[LouisW]

I dont have a species P. caudatum either so I cant speak too confidently but my P. Grande which is half caudatum does great in S/H.

[kmarch]

Originally Posted by Brooke

I need to make a correction to the above post. I DO NOT have the species caudatum and have no experience with it.

The species that does hate wet feet is Phrag. warszewiczianum, which used to be wallisii. I didn't have enough coffee for the brain cell to function properly.

Sorry

Brooke

No need to be sorry Brooke, though you haven't grown caudatum, you're actually right about it. It is one of the phrags that like it a bit drier. I've grown caudatun, warszewiczianum, and walisii and none of them like wet feed. Unlike my other phrags, none of these sat in water. I grew them like high light paphs. The culture is actually the same for all of the phrags in this group.

[Brooke]

I still feel bad about making a statement about a particular plant by stating I had one when I don't. Maybe my brain cell remembered your warnings on the caudatum and I stuck it up there for future reference and it slipped out as a fact

Like Louis I have three different Grandes and I know a couple of them did great in s/h - my third one is newer so I never tried it.

Brooke

[koshki]

Honestly, Brooke, I'm shocked...there's an orchid out there that you don't have???!!!

[Brooke]

Not only don't I have all of them I've discovered I don't like some of them I finally got over the "must have them all" phase of orchid growing.

Brooke

[riyokotsu]

Man, this thing is sure a problem chid for me. So, a few days ago, I checked up on the growth I posted about above. The center-most,tiniest leaf in the growth had completely browned! The leaf directly outside it browned in the center of the leaf. I am SO confused by this thing! What is its issue??

I'd be more concerned, but it has ANOTHER new growth forming about a half inch away from it.

I apologize for the terrible lighting of this picture. I can take one tomorrow when the sun is out, if necessary. But you can kind of make out the completely browned center leaf and the brown spot in the center of the next one. It looks like the next leaf might start doing this also (not visible in the picture). This browning is NOT a drying-out-type of browning. The leaves are squishy-ish.



I am so bummed!

[Brooke]

I think you have trapped water in the center of the growth and have a rot issue. I've never done it to a phrag but did accomplish it on a multi growth paph.

I don't know if the growth has the abilility to continue to grow or if that growth is dead. Again, I don't know but it is probably like crown rot in a phal.

If that growth is dead, a secondary growing point may kick in and give you a new growth to replace it. Mother Nature was pretty thorough when she designed orchids and their ability to survive in a harsh environment.

You do have a new growth so I would make sure I didn't get water in the center, increase the air circulation and hope for more sunny days.

Brooke

[riyokotsu]

Thanks again, Brooke.

I decided to see if I could salvage it. I cut off the brown parts and sprinkled with cinnamon. The brown didn't go all the way down on the center leaf there, so I decided to see if I could save it. After a bit of moving around, it turns out that the brown one was NOT the center-most leaf. There's a tinier little green guy hiding under there. So, I still have hope for this growth.

I really don't know how I could have gotten water in there in the first place, but who knows.