Black Orchid: Fdk After Dark Trade Project

[jay]

Even if it doesn't spike, it should produce another growth on the newer large bulb. Two growth points could mean a very nice display next year.

[zuri]

Hello everyone!

I'm happy to be reporting growth plus roots on the new growth. No spikes. One of the bulbs looks especially shriveled and like it might have some sort of black fungus growing on it. I might remove it. Otherwise everything looks great.

Unusual for there to be that drop of "dew" on the new growth? I notice similar stuff near/on the flowers of my phal that's in bloom.

Congrats to you, too, PhalPal, and I know that the other After Darks will be showing signs of life soon as well...

Can't wait to see all your pictures!

[PhalPal]

Zuri Thanks for posting some pictures of what is going on with yours, and congrats to you too for the new growth as well!

I have almost the identical growth pattern as you. I have one large, plump bulb, a smaller one that is fairly shriveled, and a tiny one that was there when I got the bulb but I doubt it will ever grow bigger. My growth is from the shriveled bulb oddly enough. I am still hoping for another growth from the healthier looking bulb.

I sent pictures to the grower Fred and he saw the shriveled bulb and told me NOT to water, as tempting as it is. Your smaller bulb is much more shriveled than mine but I still think you should follow the same rules, especially since your large bulb looks so healthy. I peeled off the dried sheaths earlier this year because I had some scale on a nearby Catt and wanted to make sure nothing was hiding on my After Dark. (ther wasn't) I'm putting all my faith in Fred and his advice!!

BTW - I love the inquisitive nose in the picture!

[zuri]

That's Mo. He my six month old Lab/Hound. He knows better than to hurt my orchids, but he loves to smell them. He's funny.

Looking at my post, I realized I accidently posted two duplicates of the same shot. So I edited and swapped them out. Now there's a picture that shows the new growth and its roots in much closer detail.

I haven't contacted Fred about my new growth, though I did send him a concerned e-mail when my plant arrived with leaves that were dying and were all yellow and spotty. It was normal.

Reading the culture sheet, it seems like I don't want to water until the roots are a lot longer. I think I saw someone on here had said 1 inch, but the culture sheet Fred gave me suggests that you wait until they're 3-5'' long. I'm guessing it might take 3-4 weeks before it's ready for its first rain shower.

Also, the culture sheet says that the typical growth pattern starts with a new bulb, which will soon grow roots, which when long enough should receive a first watering. After the new growth gets substantially bigger, the plant moves into a flowering period. So maybe none of us should be disappointed that we're not seeing spikes... it's not the right time yet.

What do you think?

Can't wait to see what this thing does. Let us know if yours makes any sudden moves, PhalPal. I'll do the same.

[rodcuda]

What is the drop of dew? Is that from insect activity?

[davidos]

Can I help you ...............

[zuri]

I don't know what the "dew" is from...

[jay]

I get a lot of sap on several of my orchids. I have heard that it can be because of mites and the plant is using its own self defense. I get the sap on mostly Catts, but I have also seen it on others. In all but one of the cases, my plants were bug free. One did have mealy bugs.

Not entirely sure from your pictures. Check for mites, if they are not there then it could just be some sap like mine.

[rodcuda]

That's why I asked, I know those are a favorite of mites. If they were dormant while the plant was leafless they could be going after the new growth. I would just make sure it's not a bug problem.

[zuri]

Thanks for your input. I have no experience with mites... what am I looking for?

[PhalPal]

Originally Posted by zuri

Thanks for your input. I have no experience with mites... what am I looking for?

DEW!!! No, seriously, DEW!

Normally I take a suspect plant to the sink and give it a good bath with just water and my fingers, but since we can't water these yet that isn't a very good option. Try a cotton ball dipped in your favorite anti-bug remedy, like cinnamon spray, Bayer 3:1, Safer Soap. Wipe it all over the leaves, especially on the undersides where they like to hide, and all nooks and crannies. Sometimes the cotton ball will have brown stuff on it; these are mites. (tiny tiny) I also remove my dried up sheaths because it gives the little buggers a hiding place. I have never actually seen a mite, just lots of dew and the aftermath which is light spots on the leaves with little indentations. Mine looked like it had been dipped in Karo syrup; keep in mind this is a plant I look at several times a day so it happens fast. If you have only one drop of dew and it is not getting worse, you probably don't have much of a problem but I would check it out anyway.

[zuri]

Hi PhalPal,

Thanks for your response and excellent advice. I love your little guy rolling on the floor laughing... that's good. Apparently I'd already found the thing I was looking for... the dew.

A cinnamon spray bath it is. Should I attempt the same on my phal that's dewy too? The dew is near the flowers.

[jay]

Hmm. . .

I noticed a new growth today on my large bulb, but it too is in the location of a new bulb not a spike. I am still holding out for a bloom this year.

[jay]

Well, I just exchanged emails with Fred Clarke again. Here they are.

With good culture you should be able to bloom the plant this coming
December. I had quite a few bloom last year but a couple of the biggest ones
did not flower.... So when they do I am expecting big inflorescences with
high flower count..

Now is a good time to begin increasing light levels and warming up your
growing by about 2 degrees at night, this will kick start the new growth.
The earlier the plant starts to grow the longer the growing season the
bigger the bulb the better flowering.


So I guess we will see them next winter. The good news is he is expecting them to have a lot of flowers.

[zuri]

Very informative. Thanks for sharing, Jay. Lets hope we all get an amazing show within the next year.

[PhalPal]

Thanks for the update Jay and congrats on the new growth!! It is just nice to see them growing something so we know all is well. Next year is going to be REALLY exciting!!!

Has anyone heard from Arlene??

[dtje2000]

I have an amusing little story for y'all regarding this Fdk. After Dark... I was at an orchid show yesterday (Sunday) where, near the end of the last day, a vendor was offering the remaining plants at 50% off the marked price. Savvy shopper that I am, I saw a Fdk. After Dark bulb...marked the usual price...so I ask the lady (knowing full well what the answer would be), "This is half off the marked price?" She glared at me with ice in her eyes so cold it chilled my coffee and snapped "No! Not that one!" Geez, ok, lady..just askin'.

But seriously, folks, I (again) showed little restraint and came home with another 40 or so plants, so with a total of about 150 plants now depending on me for their existence it occurs to me I should probably step up my game a little. On the Care and Culture area, I will be posting some photos of what may very well be problems but I could sure use some advice. For those in the the mood to nurture the newbie, check me out in a day or two and smother me with advice, please!

[zuri]

DT,

Thanks for sharing this funny story with us (I can only imagine the look on her face... and yours), and I can't wait to learn more about the orchids you're growing.

With 150 plants, you're obviously not a newbie!

[PhalPal]

Before I went to pick up our three bulbs last spring I asked one of Fred Clarkes guys if there was a 'volume discount.' I thought I knew the answer, but asked anyway, because the answer is definately NO until you ask, right?? He was very polite but sheepishly answered, "NO. There aren't enough of them in the world to put them on sale". It never hurts to ask DT!

[Jirel]

I heard someone at the Venice show asking about the Fdk. After Dark. I got quite a kick out of knowing what he was asking for, thanks to this thread.

[arleneg]

Hi! I finally made it here today...been rather busy.

I did a quick catch-up on this thread and was going to answer your (Connie & Jay) questions. But Fred answered them.

Quick update..."Fergie" has new growth. Barring anything real bad happening, I'm almost 100% certain we'll have the blooms we've been waiting for this fall/winter.

I'll be repotting mine in 2 weeks, since I've been busy this past week and will be this week. I'm tempted to divide it, but will wait next year.

I'm off to catch up on a few threads/messages and hope to be back sooner than later.

[PhalPal]

YEAH Arlene!!! I was beginning to worry about yours! My growth is about two inches high now and the roots the same length. It is killing me not watering!!!! ARRGGH! I repotted it and it looks sooooo dry and thirsty. Hurry hurry grow grow so I can water you!!!!

[jay]

I am going to divide and repot this weekend. I will try to post pictures of the process. The back bulb does not have a growth on it right now, but if I divide I think I can "encourage" it to start one so it will be blooming size when we trade next fall. Keeping my fingers crossed.

[arleneg]

I'm going to divide my Cycs this weekend, too...trading with a o.s. member this coming Monday.

I'm still somewhat hesitant to divide my After Dark. Let me know how you do with yours, Jay.

[jay]

Well it is divided. I started watering the new growth today because roots were about 4 inches long. The old divided growth was lightly splashed with water/worm tea/superthrive. It does not have a new growth at the moment, but I am hoping that not being attached to the main bulb will tell it to grow or die.

I guess time will tell. I will post pictures later, a little behind schedule right now.

[jay]

My seedlings are coming out of dormancy!

I was just finishing watering, and getting ready to clean house, when I noticed some green on my dormant little seedlings. Upon further review, 7 of them have started new growths and roots. I guess that means I will be doing a lot of repotting soon. I think I am going to move them into small S/H pots since I had so much luck with the larger Fdk. After Dark that way.

I have about 35 seedlings all together, so this is just the early growers. I will again update photos as soon as I get a few extra minutes. It may have to wait until tomorrow.

[kmarch]

Although I don't grow this plant, I read this thread 1) because they're great plants and I'm very interested in them, and 2) because this is such a rich and valuable contribution to the forum.

But I've come across another realization too after reading some of your shopping stories and that is, if I ever visit anywhere near any of you, I want to go orchid shopping with you all! You sound like you'd all be great fun to orchid shop with!!!

[jay]

Here they are! The seedlings starting their new growths!

There are several starting. I am so excited to see this. Now I have to worry about space since these grow like weeds.

[arleneg]

Jay,

I haven't gotten to dividing today. I've gotten a bad cold and feeling well at the moment. If I feel any better later, I just might divide.

Hey, send some seedlings my way. I have some room.

[jay]

Sorry to hear that you are not feeling well Arlene. Maybe playing with your 'chids will make you feel better. I wasn't sure if I was going to divide for sure until I did it. I'm hoping it will start a new growth and not die.

When I start re-potting the seedlings I will know if I have room for them all or not. If not, I will let you know.

[arleneg]

Jay,

I could barely get up! So I sat or laid down for most of yesterday. I'm feeling a little better today and hope to water the 'chids.

If you don't see new growth on the division this season, you should see one next winter/spring.

Please do let me know!

[jay]

Well the division went well. I have the old leafless bulb (the one that we got a year ago) in a pot just sitting dry, hoping it will start a new growth. The newest bulb that has the new growth is potted up and being watered already. It is growing quickly as expected.

Here we go again with plants on steroids.

[PhalPal]

How exciting Jay!!! I was thrilled watching just one of these grow; I can't imagine a whole posse. You are going to hear noises in the middle of the night and it will be the seedlings raiding the refrigerator! After gorging themselves, they will steal your car and take it for a joyride.
Kevin we could keep you busy orchid shopping for days!! You are welcome anytime!

[berkeleysgr8]

I've got room for a few of those seedlings Jay! *smile*

[hulaorchid]

PhalPal, How is yours doing!!
Jay! Great growing! S/H rocks!!

[-k-]

They certainly are amazing looking... just way out of my price range...
Also a very wide variety of orchids you have there, thankx for sharing!

[PhalPal]

Hula mine is almost to the point of needing water. It's little roots are just diving down into it's very dry medium. The growth is almost four inches high but the roots have maybe another 1/2 inch before I begin watering. And then we all know what happens when we do that.....Audrey returns!!

Jay how do you 'start watering' when growing in SH??? Do you just fill the reservior and let the new roots reach for the puddle???

[jay]

PhalPal - I repotted it into a larger pot with a deeper reservoir. I may have started watering them all a little early, but I start gradually. First I spray worm tea mix over the top until the water reaches the bottom and just starts to pool. This will be gone quickly since the LECA was so dry it soaks it up. I concentrate the spray around the new roots, and I trimmed most of the old dead roots off to reduce the chance of rot. Once I see continued growth I keep water in it at all times. Because the LECA brings the water up, it will get the water to the new roots.

[tizzycat]

Hats off to you all, I was so disappointed not being able to get one over here, but following your progress takes the sting out of it.

[jay]

I don't have pictures, but I cleaned the sphagnum moss out and repotted the first three seedlings into S/H. They had roots about 3 inches long. There are now about 25 seedlings with new growths and about 10-15 more that could still start growths.

I will post pictures when they start to really grow.

My large Fdk After Dark is growing differently than I remember from last year. The base of the new bulb is much fatter than I remember them this early. It seems to be swelling a little before growing up. The roots are now about 4-5 inches long and going strong.

I should have about 40 ridiculously fast growing plants this year.

[LouisW]

Man... forty sounds like a loooot, Jay. Sure you can handle it..?

You know... I have a little spot that could easily fit an Fdk. You could probably talk me into lightening you load a little (I would even take more than one if you beg).

[zuri]

Wow. Hats off to you, Jay. I so admire your ability to grow and care for orchids. Great work!

Thought I'd share a picture or two of what my After Dark is doing. I started watering a little over a week ago and since then I can almost watch as it is growing. It's amazing. The roots are beautiful and out of control. The new growth is nearly as tall as the largest pseudobulb... I'm guessing that it will be within a week or two.

Would love to see some pics of everyone elses'...

Hope you enjoy!

[jay]

Zuri - You might want to repot that now. It will never fit in that little pot. The new bulb could get as big as twice the size of the previous bulb. I would bet that that little pot is crammed with roots and that is why it is sending its roots over the edge looking for more space.

It looks great and healthy. Your growth new growth is actually a little larger than mine. My leaves are just now starting to spread. I will get pictures this weekend if I can find time.

[zuri]

Jay,

Thanks for the advice on repotting. Somewhere along the way I heard that the pots are more for us and less for them--eek? bad advice?--and have accordingly repotted only to replace broken down media.

If the new bulb could get twice as big then this one will definitely need a new pot. Will do that tomorrow. Thank you.

[jay]

For some orchids it is fine for them to be over the edge of the pot. However, for a water loving orchid like this you want those roots to be able to get water and nutrients. They can get some moisture from the air, but not near enough. You will get much better growth from the new bulb with adequate water and nutrients.

I feel it. I think this is the year for very dark blooms.

By the way. I am going to visit Fred Clarke this coming up Monday or Tuesday. My mom is visiting California for the first time ever and I am taking her to San Diego to see the ocean. Of course we couldn't go there without a trip to Sunset Valley Orchids - Grower and hybridizer of quality orchids, Vista CA

[PhalPal]

Jay I thought the same thing when I saw Zuri's pics. My roots are diving straight down into a very dry medium and I probably have 12? or so new root nubs just starting. I am waiting as late as possible to water them but I think this week will be the time. I will get pictures tomorrow; my growth is looking really good, just like Zuris!

Zuri your thought on the pots being for us is true, but we use pots to make it possible to grow them in our homes. When Fdk's start to really grow I can't water it enough, literally. I made the mistake of not repotting several times last season when it was in very active growth. As a result, Jay's large bulb is about twice the size of mine.

[zuri]

Thanks for the great advice. Obviously my boyfriend has a lot of faith in me to have gotten me this amazing (and expensive) orchid... I hope I can keep up with it! With your help, I think I might have a fighting chance...

I was thinking a fine grade fir bark. I don't have any experience with S/H and don't want to take that leap yet. S/H aside, what would you recommend?

[LouisW]

How about the choir, perlite, and charcoal mix that is great for paphs. I think that might work well, also Fred Clark has a recipe for what he uses on his site.

[jay]

I think there are many types of mixes that would do well with this orchid. The main thing to consider is having a mix that can hold a good amount of moisture, but also allow for air movement and good drainage. When these are in growth they use a lot of water. I grow mine in S/H and it is the only plant that would empty its reservoir every day. It would go dry and need water every morning. I really think this is one of those orchids that can truly benefit from S/H more than others because of how much water it likes during the growing season. I am not saying that it can't be done successfully with other methods, this is just what I have found.

[Azure]

This is really interesting thread. I've learned a lot from reading it. Good luck to everyone. (They look like in another year or two they'll be massive)

[zuri]

Sounds like I need to research S/H... and that above all what this orchid needs is lotsa water. Thanks again for your help. And thanks to you, too, Louis, for pointing me towards Fred Clarke's site for a grow mix.

[LouisW]

Zuri, I think you should research S/H, but I wouldn't use a Fdk. to learn the technique. Not that its hard but if you miss a detail you might kill a plant or two before you get it right. I would suggest putting a few less valuable plants and working out the kinks through the next year or so. That way by the next time your After Dark needs potting you might be well versed in S/H.

Also the LECA is a good additive to medias. I like to put a little bit at the bottom of all the plants i pot because it helps air get up through the bottom. Even non orchids like that.

[arleneg]

Zuri,

First of all, your Fdk. After Dark is so plump...looks very healthy! It looks way much better than mine. The older bulb is a bit shriveled. But then, mine took a dive a few times and lost lots of media. After the third dive, I decided to go rather bare on the potting media. It was already fall at that time. Do it went dormant before Jay's and Connie's (PhalPal).

At any rate, I used a combo of sphag. moss and medium size coconut husk chips for the Fdk. If you have moss and bark, that will work, too.

[jay]

IT WORKED!!!!!!

I divided my Fredclarkeara After Dark when repotting for this years growth. The new bulb had a new growth, but the back bulb did not. I separated them and potted both up. I have not watered the back bulb, just put it back on the shelf.

Today while watering I noticed that it is starting a new growth! That means I will have a blooming size division to trade with our After Dark group this year! I am so excited that it worked.

I will start watering it when the roots get a few inches long.

[dorothea]

that's great news! I'm happy for you! actually, can't wait to see them in bloom

[dtje2000]

Congratulations, Jay! Nicely done!

General question to y'all... I have three Catasetums, and I'm curious to know if the medium discussed above is for the plant in general or specific to the Fdk. After Dark?

[-k-]

I'm excited and I'm just an on looker! Please continue to keep the updated pics coming!

[jay]

Dt - The medium is LECA used for S/H (semi-hydroponic). It can be used with nearly all orchids. It is really good for water loving orchids like the Fdk. and Catasetums.

Here is an update on my larger After Dark with its new growth. It is taking off really fast.

[PhalPal]

YEAH JAY!!!!!!

It took guts!!! My little bulb is a bit shriveled too, but after looking at your photo ours might be fairly similiar. I just started watering and have great root growth. I'll wait just a bit to see if mine starts to look a bit healthier and then I may divide too, or do you think it is too late?????

Has your division started any roots yet?????

[dtje2000]

Thanks, Jay...and I have some of that stuff...the chick pea-sized clay balls, yes? Ok, I think I will trot over to some of the instructional SH threads and get myself educated on how to set these things up. I've been wanting to try this method out, and clearly my Ctsms are great candidates!

[jay]

PhalPal - I divided my Fdk. when it started the new growth on the larger bulb. It took about 2 weeks for the divided back bulb to start something. It is probably not too late. The back bulb had nothing to work this year and that is why I think it started a new growth.

My larger more developed Fdk. has a ton of new roots. I think a couple have already made it down to the reservoir. I started watering with worm tea/Voodoo juice (liquid microbes from my hydroponic store) and just started using fertilizer last week. It is growing like crazy already. I love these things.

[PhalPal]

Okay.....I took some pictures. I am planning on repotting these bulbs into a larger pot now that it has started roots. I'm also hoping it plumps up soon; this dormancy stuff drives me nuts!

What do ya'll think?????

[jay]

Looking good. Your new growth is just a little larger than mine is right now. I think mine got a late start for some reason.

Are you going to divide when you repot? My oldest bulb is not pluming, but I don't mind since it is starting a new growth.

[PhalPal]

That's what I am thinking of doing?? After seeing yours in about the same shape and still throwing a growth I figure I may as well go ahead and divide. It's possible one of the roots belong to the bigger bulb not associated witht he growth. It was hard to get all of the roots in the picture.

I'll post a picture when the deed is done!

[jay]

I think it is interesting that your back bulb started the new growth. Maybe a divide will encourage your newer bulb to start a growth. Not sure.

Either way, this could give you an opportunity to try two different growing methods with the same plant. You could always give S/H a try.

[PhalPal]

Yeah, I was very surprised that the newer, smaller bulb started the first growth. I was holding out hope that the more mature bulb would send a spike, but I have given up on that idea.
I will give some thought into putting the divided bulb into S/H. I need to make a trip to a hydrophonics store sometime soon anyway; I can pick up some Hydroton at that time. The size of yours was just amazing (in March), at LEAST double the size of mine!
Just to keep track, the big differences in culture have been:
S/H versus a traditional moisture retentive medium, LED lights versus T5's, and the fact that you repotted several times during the growth season while I left mine in the same pot.
Any one of these methods could make a huge difference! We sure are learning a lot from these little plants.

[jay]

PhalPal - I am trying a larger pot this year so I don't have to repot. I did 3 times last year because it kept outgrowing its pot. It slowed for a week each time I did the repot, but did well in the end. I hope the one pot will work this year.

[LouisW]

PhalPal, it looks to me like your new bulb has a very small growth starting in your second picture. Its a little unclear in the photo but take a close look on the real plant.

[Plucky Purcell]

I love this thread. The only problem is that each time I read it I just want to head towards Sunset Valley. I mean, it's only 45 minutes away and I don't REALLY need that money for food or rent or gas... Dag! I guess I'll be good again. You guy's make it hard though.

[hulaorchid]

Congratulations guys!! You all have great patience!!! Keep us posted!!

[PhalPal]

Originally Posted by LouisW

PhalPal, it looks to me like your new bulb has a very small growth starting in your second picture. Its a little unclear in the photo but take a close look on the real plant.

Louis that is a tiny root tip between the two bulbs and I am not sure which bulb it is coming from. The roots are so small and delicated right now I'm not sure I want to mess with it, but then again these babies throw out new roots like crazy.
I guess it is better to divide now rather than wait until the roots are tangled.

[jay]

Seedling Update!

Well, here are some pictures of the seedlings that are coming along nicely. 29 have already come out of dormancy and started new growths. There is another 12 or so that were late to going into dormancy and should start growths in the next few weeks.

Photo 1 - Their home. This is a vinyl mini indoor greenhouse. Stays at 65-75% humidity, 73-85 F, 3 T5 bulbs on top and 2 T5 bulbs on bottom.

Photos 2-4 - These are the first 3 to come out of dormancy. You can see they have a nice head start to the growing season.

Photos 5,6 - These are the 29 that are potted up in S/H. Some of them will not be watered for another week or two, some are already getting water.

Photo 7 - These are the ones still waiting to wake up.

I have a feeling that these are going to keep me very busy this summer.

[jay]

Do you like these little seedlings? Watch here for your chance to get one and help OrchidGeeks in the process.

http://www.orchidgeeks.com/forum/gen...ck-orchid.html

[PhalPal]

WOW Jay! Talk about CUTE and EXCITING!!!!!! Your babies look great! Now.....off to click on your link........

[jay]

Well my fellow After Dark traders. It is time for mine to be sent out. I think we still have to figure out how we are going to do this. I think we have 4-5 people growing to trade, although Clarita has been absent for quite some time.

Here is my division ready to leave. It is not ready to be watered yet. If whoever receives this one would like to try S/H I will send along LECA and a pot to give it a try. I highly recommend it for this type of plant and it could not be easier to do with this one.

Photo 1 & 2 - The division and growth to be traded.
Photo 3 & 4 - My "mother" plants new growth is already 8 inches (20 cm) tall after just a few weeks. This thing is growing even faster this year than last! Starting the positive fall blooming thoughts now.