Black Orchid: Fdk After Dark Trade Project

[patticake]

Yee-Ha! Grow, baby, grow! That's really taking off!

[Greenhouse Gal]

That plant is looking good. I think we are all excited for you.

[Jirel]

Weeee! What a way to grow!

[BillC]

Here I am again at back end of the thread that has large numbers of geeks fizzing with enthusiasm over this project and this is my first glimpse of what is happening on the forum. However, when I clicked on the link and saw the Fdk. After Dark 'SVO Black Diamond' FCC/AOS I was amazed at the colour of this beauty. I trust that you three will reap the benefits of all your labours in regard to Black Beauty.

Bill

[PhalPal]

This little guy is growing like mad! There are many, many visible new roots that I can see through the plastic pot and they seem to be going in all directions. I am watering it every single day because my lights are drying and it is just sucking up the water. This really is an exciting plant to have because the progress is so visual.

He had grown 2.5 inches (6.4 cm) in nine days!!

[arleneg]

Wow! Yours has really gotten taller. Plus, I think you got the biggest new growth to start with. Mine and Jay's are about the same height, but will catch up by August.

Ok, I'm going to try taking a measurement and pic of Little Fergie. I hope i don't knock it down.

[jay]

Fingers are crossed for you Arlene.

Connie - That looks great. Fred said that this round of bulbs should be roughly twice the size of the previous years bulb.

They are all taking off. I feel like a kid in a candy store. I can literally watch these grow. Oh, I think it just grew another cm.

[PhalPal]

I either have the smallest bulb/biggest growth, or biggest bulb/smallest growth. I don't remember which one. All of the growths were within 3/4 of an inch of each other when I picked them up.

Can't wait for your pictures Arlene!

[jay]

When I was at his greenhouse, there were several from the same batch as the one we got ours. I must say that ours a even a little bit bigger than the ones he had at his greenhouse. By the end of the summer a couple of cm will not matter when these bulbs will be nearly double the previous bulb. At this rate I think we will all be so delighted in the fall.

Connie - Thanks again for going to San Diego to get these. Even if you did get the bigger one you deserved it for going to get them and getting them to us.

[FLaCo]

How can I get my hands on a FDk After Dark...I am at the sunset website but I can't find a button to add to cart.

[jay]

FlaCo - You need to just give him a call. They are not listed on the site. He also sells them at many different orchid shows. He is very nice and full of information.

[FLaCo]

Great ! Thanks Jay!

[jay]

I am going to warn you to be careful. These are very addictive!

In another thread I was blamed for getting several members hooked on the Catasetinae family. So, you have been warned.

[kid a]

OMG, I can't believe I just now stumbled upon this post! I have been missing so much on this thread. My heart actually started beating faster just reading it -was very exciting. I am blown away by how fast these things grow. I'm to inexperienced and poor to justify a project like this so I am grateful I have all you wonderful geeks to learn from!

[jay]

Kid a - You don't have to buy a $100 Fredclarkeara to see an orchid grow like this. The whole Catasetinae family grows this fast. Give Fred a call to see what he has that will go with what you like. In the mean time, browse his site to see what some of the flowers look like.

Sunset Valley Orchids pictures of Catasetinae.

[arleneg]

Got a measurement and pic!

#1 - ignore the ruler...just wanted you to see the height of the new growth compared to the bulb.
#2 - the height is between 5 3/4" (14.60 cm) and 6" (15.24 cm)...ruler was slightly crooked.
#3 - its home (second from left); next to it is my Cyc. Wine Delight and Cyc. barthiorum, respectively.

P.s. -- It's evident that Little Fergie fell. Can you see the little boo-boos?

[arleneg]

Connie -- Looking back, I can tell you have the biggest new growth.

And, yes, thank you for going to the San Diego orchid show and picking these up and mailing them to us. You deserve the biggest of the bunch.

Jay -- YOU were the one that pointed out the Fdk. But Connie and I were the ones who telepathically 'persuaded' you to get in on this purchase and project. But hey, I was planning on buying it anyway...with or without you guys.

[kid a]

Originally Posted by jay

Kid a - You don't have to buy a $100 Fredclarkeara to see an orchid grow like this. The whole Catasetinae family grows this fast. Give Fred a call to see what he has that will go with what you like. In the mean time, browse his site to see what some of the flowers look like.

Sunset Valley Orchids pictures of Catasetinae.

Thanks so much jay! Boy I can't wait to get that stimulus check so I can move and have more space for more chids! I absolutely adore the Clo Grace Dunn 'Live Oak' HCC and the Cloweisa Rebecca Northern 'Hill Top'. I definitely will need to get more lights and just use my full spectrum desk lamps for display. Ok, I'm getting ancy now, I' m ready to move and set my humidity tray up and get more chids!

[jay]

Arlene, Little Fergie looks great! I can't see the 'boo boos'. I look forward to fall to see your other blooms as well. I am really enjoying this family of orchids.

[arleneg]

I guess, the pics aren't big enough to see them. Try looking closer...the leaf on right. You'll see two little yellow/white dots.

I've had the Wine Delight since Aug. 2006 and the barthiorum since last Sept. Cyc. barthiorum is rather new. I, too, look forward for it to bloom, along with After Dark, this fall.

[nessy]

"This was being offered on eBay a couple months ago. I thought the seller was selling something slightly bigger for $100. "


Raises hand
My first time posting but hello. The sellers ID was nessys-nest
I live five minuts from Freds house. Question why did you go all the way to San Diego and not stop at freds greenhouse? Seems like a crime when it is just off the 78 frwy.

[PhalPal]

Nessy all of Fred's people and Fred were tied up with the show. It would have been closer for me just to stop at his place but it wasn't possible. We go to San Diego a lot since I grew up there and we have season Charger tickets. I will definately drop by to say hi to Fred on one of my trips down south.

* note to self: leave credit card at home.

[clarita]

Whoa! I have been off the board and missed this one.ok so I've made the call. Count me in. Which ones did you get? He has many for sale. I will get a different hybrid so we can increase the chances. OMG! Look at those babies!.... Please LMK what you all have

[kid a]

count me in too!!! IRS says I will have my monies in a week :-) so i'll be ordering next friday!!! I'm sooo excited!

[clarita]

My "black beauties" are scheduled to ship out on Tuesday. WoooHooo!

[PhalPal]

We have the Fdk. After Dark. That is the only name on the tag.

Sooo glad to have you join us clarita and kid a!!!!

[clarita]

I left it up to Fred to choose. He mentioned several one that bears his name. I ordered 2 my wallet! I'll let you all know what he sends, I figure he would know best!

[jay]

Clarita and Kid a - I am so glad to see more interested in this project.

As Connie said, we all have the exact same plant. It is Fredclarkeara After Dark. The unique thing about this plant is that each of will have a unique flower with color and pattern. About 50% of the flowers come out as "black", which is actually very dark and deep colors of reds and blues.

Each plant is $100 from Fred. They should bloom this fall. Make sure you post pictures when you get yours.


Connie and Arlene - What have we started?

[clarita]

Its the Devil's work, he comes in many forms
(and shades of black)

Thank you for starting Project "Black-ops"!

[PhalPal]

I think it's great we have corrupted others!! Pulled them right over to the darkside!

[arleneg]

Clarita -- OMG. You bought 2?! I'd be broke for the rest of the year! LOL

Jay -- We've started a Cata-craze.

kid_a & clarita -- Welcome to the project! Looking forward to seeing your After Darks when you receive them.

[jay]

So here are the update photos.

This has grown from 4.1cm to 20cm in only 28 days.

I am seeing another 4 or 5 nubs to new roots beginning. I am also seeing the base of this stalk beginning to swell. I have also seen the first root make it to the bottom of the S/H reservoir (which is about 2 inches from where the roots started).

Thanks for watching.

Arlene and Connie?

[patticake]

Jay, Oh My!!! I can't get over the speed this baby is growing at!!! How very cool!!!!

[articuno75]

It doubled in size ! Whoa!

[PhalPal]

Here is Frankie reaching for the sky!! Check out those roots; they are that numerous spread out all around the pot. I couldn't see one root when I repotted it a month ago! Considering the destruction it took to repot this baby I can't believe it has bounced back so well in just one month. It may be weird (so what!) but I get just as excited about the roots as I do the flowers.
Growth seems to have slowed down a bit as far as gaining height. He has only grown an inch since 4/29. (the angle of the ruler inside the pot is distorted) I have noticed the tiny side bulb to have a bit of a swell and roots have gone crazy. (I like that)

Does anyone know what is the average height for a plant for of this sort??? I don't care but the top tip is getting very close to my bulbs! He seems to LIKE it so I don't want to mess with success.

[clarita]

Mine will arrive tomorrow. I feel like it's Christmas Eve! Pix will be posted as soon as they come out of the boxl

Look at the growth! That is unreal!!

Go Fed Ex!

[PhalPal]

Fed-EX! Fed-Ex! Fed-Ex!

[sandra]

Originally Posted by PhalPal

It may be weird (so what!) but I get just as excited about the roots as I do the flowers.

Me too, I just love roots. Frankie is quite handsome!

[FLaCo]

I have mentioned it before...during summer that is what excites me about orchids.

[jay]

Where are they Clarita?

[arleneg]

Connie -- Frankie sure has grown a lot! He's much taller than Fergie. However, Fergie looks like she's catching up. I'll post a pic sometime this weekend. I got food poisoning earlier this week and still working on regaining my strength.

Clarita -- Where are your Fdk babies?!

[jay]

Arlene - I hope that you are feeling better now. I think little Frankie is catching up too. If these are supposed to grow like this all summer and not bloom until late fall/early winter, how big are they going to get?

Clarita - on the edge of my seat now, can't wait to see your new orchids.

[clarita]

They arrived!WhoooHooo!

Count me in officially on operation black ops!
My server is down. Will post pic as soon as it is back up

Questions

1)Are we shooting for male or female?
What will give us the best colour?
I only do species so I am lost with these little "Black Beauties"

2). The FDK's came in spag. That's a first for me in this family. Any thoughts on why? Any thoughts on substrate?

I am checking my server every 15 minutes... BRB!

[PhalPal]

Yippee!!!! I can't wait to see them!

All three of us have ours planted in different stuff (semi-hydro, coir mix and bark?) AND different lighting (natural, LED's and T5's) and it doesn't seem to matter to them, they just grow. The sprag was so tightly packed around my tiny roots is was a major pain getting it out. Get ready for a marathon root picking! I would definately repot even if you put them back into fresh moss. My moss looked fairly old and soggy.

Get those picture up and make sure you measure them to keep a record!

[clarita]

I'm dying! Server still down. Mine are both 4 1/8". Dead even

Female flowers and male flowers look really different in colour. That's why I'm inquiring...
Here is a good example
http://www.orchidspecies.com/catasetumsacatum.htm

Grow differently

Thanks about the spag. It is tight as a drum. The moss looks good but its so risky for me to grow in 100% spag in my conditions.I don't like the way it dries and this is in plastic, not clay.

I really prefer a chunky loser mix. I am not a de-pot re-potter... I may have to break my rule on this one unless Fred had a reason to spag them

[kid a]

Awww man, I guess my post was a bit misleading. I am ordering the top three from the hybrid project and a few more. Sorry! Although I am entertaining, leading towards strong consideration of going for it! The only thing that is keeping me now that I am considering it is the thought of loosing such a wonderful expensive plant. OH what should I do??? Now I really want it! lol! I haven't lost a plant in over three years but then again I had 5 now up to seven soon to be more. Hmmmm....... ;-)

[made4engineering]

Originally Posted by clarita

Female flowers and male flowers look really different in colour. That's why I'm inquiring...

The male ones I'm pretty sure. The females are always the boring ones.

[jay]

With the majority of the Catasetinae tribe or group (not sure on the correct term there) there are male and female flowers.

Fredclarkeara however are "perfect" flowers that have both male and female parts.

As for culture - they like a well draining medium, good air movement, LOTS of light, and LOTS of water and fertilizer when growing.

As for the variations in flowers. . . this happens because of the complex nature of this hybrid. There are several species in the makeup of this orchid which allows different outcomes in the genetic makeup of Fredclarkeara After Dark.

Hope this helps.

[arleneg]

jay -- I'm feeling better each day, but not quite at 100%, yet. I think Fergie has caught up in growth, too. The bulb wrinkled a little since I haven't watered in almost a week, due to me coming down ill. But I watered her good this afternoon.

clarita -- jay grows his in s/h and under LED lights; Connie (Phalpal) grows her in coir mix and under T5 lights; I grow mine in medium coconut husk chips and under dappled south west light.

As far as I know, Fdk After Dark has both male and female flowers. I have two Cycnoches barthiorum and am trying to see if I can get one to bloom male flowers and one to bloom female.

I'm sure yours will catch up by July.

[clarita]

Kind of helps. I can grow them in lower light like a male or higher light like a female. I agree the females are not as desirable but isn't that true in nature

Not sure what to do. We are going for colour on this collaberation sooo any thoughts on fc's/conditions to get optimal colour

OK my server is back up here they are:



Specs
#1
- 2 bb's 2.5" and 1/4"
Growth 4 1/8"

#2
2 bb's 3 1/2" and 1/2"
Growth 4 2/8"

Tags Read:
Fredclarkeara After Dark
(Mo. Painted Desert 'Sunset Valley Orchids' HCC/AOS
x
Ctsm Donna Wise 'Kathleen' AM/AOS)

I am going to let them settle in and then think about a media change, probably bark/ tree fern mix

[PhalPal]

Okay, Now I'm lost!! Male or female flowers?? We can get both from the same plant and light is the determining factor in what sex/type of flower we get? Can we produce a male flower one year and a female the next if we change culture? We have transgender orchids!???

I just want a black and red orchid that smells like eucalyptus.

Kid a I would say go for it and just get one. I was worried about killing a $100orchid also but this one has turned out to be the easiest I have ever grown. It didn't sulk when repotted and the growth of roots and leaves has been amazing. You know you want one - just do it! You have been officially 'shoved'!

[PhalPal]

Clarita your sprag looks a lot fresher than mine was and your pot looks bigger. I would suspect that maybe there is old moss under the fresh stuff on top?? They may have just up-potted; I'm sure they didn't take the time to pick out the old moss like Jay, Arlene and I did. I would break your rule on this one and completely repot into a mix you are familiar with. It's going to be easier to get all the moss out of the root ball now versus waiting until it has really grown and wrapped around what is there now.

[clarita]

Yes in species plants of this tribe male and female flowers are determined by culture.
Male: lower light more humid conditions. (2-3000 fc range in general)Aaron is right, they are the showy ones

Female: Higher light dryer conditions (4000 fc range) Not as attractive can be a totally different colour

Most photos shown in catalogues are male

Hermaphroditic flowers are also possible but in my conditions, unlikely. Colour I couldn't venture a guess

I've never experienced male/female together.

The link I posted above regarding the saccatum has photos of male and female flowers. Very different in colour!

I do not raise hybrids so I am really not sure what to do. Maybe I should give Fred a ring? We are all shooting for a goal of a black flower. How best to do that is not understood at this point for me

[clarita]

Phalpal I agree. I am going to "pick" this weeekend. Spag and a black plastic pot is not something my conditions will allow. I can see styrofoam at the bottom through the holes. I don't like my plants growing in PCB's :-) au natural is better. I can't even get the tag back in its so tight. Just wondering why he chose to spag them??? Heavy drinkers? Goes with the Genus...mmmmm...

Sometimes being a species gal is tough!

[jay]

For the battle of the sexes.

To the best of my knowledge, Fredclarkeara After Dark does not have seperate male and female flowers. Many of the species in these groups do, but the Fredclarkeara is a "perfect flower" that is both male and female.

I think I see where the confusion is. Fredclarkeara After Dark is like most other orchids, that is there is not a different male or female flower, they are all hermaphroditic.

The reason for the variations are because there are several species that make up this hybrid. During the process of crossing these, the parents can give different combinations of resessive and dominant traits that will determine the final outcome. Because of this you can get variations.

This is completely hypothetical since I don't really know what traits are dominate and resessive.
I will try to explain the chart below. The pollen parent is represented by the A and B on the top and the pod parent is represented by the A and B on the left. If this was for the DNA of flower shape, A could be dominate for round and B could be resessive for oval. If both parents give A then the hybrid will have round flowers. If each parent offer different traits, one A and one B, then the hybrid will have a round flowers but will be able to have offspring that can have either round our oval flowers. If both flowers give B then the flowers will be oval in shape.

This will happen with each step of the DNA to get the makeup of the hybrid including size, # of flowers, color, and everything else. Even though the parents both have round flowers(a dominant trait) they can have offspring with round or oval flowers.


___|_A_|_B_
_A_|-AA|-AB
_B_|-BA|-BB


This is why there are so many variations to the Fredclarkeara becuase there are several species offering genetic diversity in the hybrid.

I hope I am not making this more confusing.

[clarita]

You're not and thanks! So it doesn't matter if I grow this under the lower light or the higher light same colouration?

[PhalPal]

Your explanation was perfect Jay, Thanks! It was a short refresher course of Physiology 101, one of my favorite classes in college.

[jay]

The light should not change the male or female or the color of the flower. However, this plant does like a lot of light. I have mine getting 3500+ footcandles of light.

I read somewhere that some of the orchids from the Catasetinae sub-tribe can use light as intense as 6000 fc.

Also, those are some very nice plants Clarita. I think I forgot to say that.

[clarita]

Jay thanks for all the fantastic info. Good discussion! Sorry about not being up on hybrids. Its why I don't keep them...
If they weren't so expensive I would get a third and keep male and female conditions; see how it would turn out... kind of off the thrust of what we are doing for now
Ok so 4000 fc's it is...or so

Any thoughts on why he spagged them? Just up-potting/addition?

[PhalPal]

I think they are in spraghum because they are VERY thirsty little bulbs! I have mine in a four inch pot with coir and I am drenching it everyday and Frankie says "Thank you very much Connie see ya tomorrow!" Very high metabolism I must say and polite too.

I get a lot of Phal hybrid and species and they are almost always in moss. I think the growers with 1,000's of plants don't need to water as much with it.

[arleneg]

clarita -- Nice plants. Like I mentioned earlier, those new growths on yours will catch up with ours.

jay -- Thanks for the refresh course in genetics. I always enjoyed learning about genetics. I have two daughters that show physical 'variations'. If i had a third kid, s/he would probably have blonde hair, blue eyes, and tan skin tone. LOL

[jay]

I think I can speak for all of us that have desphaged our bulbs . . . Have fun.

[PhalPal]

Originally Posted by jay

I think I can speak for all of us that have desphaged our bulbs . . . Have fun.

He said with a giggle and a wink.......

[PhalPal]

I just wanted to cross link another interesting thread on Catasetum bulbs: Catasetum

[sandra]

Originally Posted by arleneg

Since I bought my first Catasetinae, I've bought two more, then this. That makes it a total of four! I truly enjoy watching the new growth grow so fast within 6 months..then the blooms.

Arlene, I bought my first Catesetum last week, absolutely intrigued by the plant and not realizing, or thinking!!! that this thread here that I've been following is the same genera of orchid that I've been since, so curious about. Jay posted reference to the FDK in my thread but it went over my head. As I said when Connie pointed this out to me, mine is a mutt compared to this one you're all growing but still, they're just fascinating. After I bought the one, I went back and bought an other and then went back and bought an other

I don't remember being so taken in by an orchid like I have with the Catesetum and I've never seen one flowered!

Just a thought but wouldn't it be a great idea to have forums here on orchidgeeks for each genera? Cattleyas forum, Catesetum forum, Paph forum, Phal forum, etc., etc......

[arleneg]

Sandra,

Yeah, it crossed my mind that you didn't connect your new 'chids are of the same genera. Since Connie connected you to this thread, I didn't have to.

Mutt or not, the flowers will be beautiful. I have a pic of my Cyc. Wine Delight 'JEM' in bloom somewhere. When I find it, I'll post it here.

I'm not sure if you asked or someone else did about the mature height of the plant. Since I never measured my Cyc last year, I think it grows to about 18", from bulb base to tip of leaf. Fdk After Dark has a shorter bulb than the Cyc. So I'm guessing, the Fdk will grow to 14" or 16".

[arleneg]

Here are a couple pics of my Cyc. Wine Delight 'JEM' when in bloom, Sept. 2007. I know it's not the same blooms you'll get, but just wanted to share.

[PhalPal]

Your Wine Delight is gorgeous Arlene! I'm with Sandra, I have become so intrigued with this genera of orchid and plan on getting many more. I have too much going on this summer with remodeling and relatives visiting from back east, but this fall I plan on getting a bunch of MUTTS!
If I don't end up getting a red and black from our divisions I guess I will just keep trying!

[sandra]

Arlene, I am doubly happy that I bought these 3 after seeing your pics! I have just named myself the Catesetum Maven! moremoremoremoremore.....

Connie, if you ever do the black orchid again, count me in! It's a good thing we don't live closer...I'd be nudging, pushing and influencing you. I'm bad! Or maybe, it's not a good thing.... And that goes for you too Arlene!

I have a dental appointment at 3:00 so until then, I am going to be combing through Sunset Valley Orchids website for moremoremoremoremore

[sruane]

Hello,

I am a new orchid lover (somehow in the past 3 months I have gotten 10 orchids...I feel obsessed). I couldn't get over how cool these potentially black ones are, so I'm going to see if I can order one too if there are any left.

I mostly have Dens. (nobile types. antelope, and nigrohisute), a few Oncs., and some vandaceous, plus a phal and Brassia.

I'll re-read through this post, but any tips on growing this particular black hybrid? I use bark for most of my orchids with a little bit of sphag.
Also, I tend to really dote on my plants and have a hard time leaving them alone...

Thanks!
Sara

[PhalPal]

Sandra, Sara, Jump on in, the waters fine!! It's never too late to join the project!

It will just give us more to oogle over when they bloom.

[sruane]

Ah I ordered one!

It will be here on the 21st!

Sara

[PhalPal]

YEAH Sara!!!! Post pictures when you get it!

[jay]

This, and I mean the project, is getting bigger than I ever thought possible. This is so exciting to share this with so many members.

I also have an update on "Little Freddie".

He is now 23cm tall from the top of the pot. There is more swelling at the base of the new bulb. New roots continue to form and grow and ridiculous rates. I think I read somewhere that they can get between 8 and 12 leaves. Mine has about 7, depending on what you count for the first leaf.

I think I just heard it say "Feed ME!"

[clarita]

Popping in quickly. I will have more time tomorrow. Couldn't wait! This is like a thriller!
Welcome to the dark side Sara!Look what I found on FDK#1


2nd growth Yahoooo!

The spag picking marathon went down this weekend. Found an additional little PB..

Bowing to the Lord of Fc's (foot candles or Fred; take your pick